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54 minutes ago, Serge said:

they say the 130mm Rheinmetall solution will reached its limit earlier because of the higher pressure chamber choice. 

 

It's a possibility, requiring the ASCALON to be built to withstand higher pressures in the future (which is likely but we don't know by how much).

The 120 mm has been in service in one form or another for over 40 year now, and progress in metallurgy (both for the gun and the ammo) allowed it to remain relevant to this day.

 

Both KNDS 140 mm and Rhm 130 mm bring an upgrade of roughly 5 to 7 MJ over existing guns, passive armor will probably have some catch-up to do. So the question is how soon will we need to upgrade the kinetic energy provided by those guns?

 

Don't get me wrong, more upgrade potential is always better, but I think that's not the main advantage of a lower pressure gun in this context. Reduced barrel wear (usefull in a high intensity conflict) and the ability to mount the gun on (slightly) lighter platforms are much more relevant in my opinion.

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9 hours ago, Serge said:

they say the 130mm Rheinmetall solution will reached its limit earlier because of the higher pressure chamber choice. 

 

I think that there is a misinterpretation between the pressure ranges ; service pressure, design pressure, extreme service condition pressure, peak pressure, permissible maximum pressure, ...

 

The larger caliber and the greater chamber volume (15+X litres) of the Rh-130 L51 L52 over a NATO 120 mm gun should logically allow to maintain the chamber pressure at a reasonable level, like the ASCALON but, to a lesser extent.

 

The Rh-130 has a design pressure of 880 MPa while the ASCALON has a service/peak pressure of 660 MPa, those are two different types of pressure.

 

In another word, both guns have growth potentials in terms of pressure increase.

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The most often quoted pressure for 120 mm guns, 672 MPa, is actually Extreme Service Condition Pressure, gun-ammuniton system-related. In L55A1 it is said to be raised to 700 MPa and in case of 130 mm L52 it is about 800 MPa. It is possible that at this moment this value for ASCALON is lower than for 120 mm gun.

Design pressure is gun-related, it is chamber pressure that is not exceeded more than one shot out of million when firing at ESCP. DP for 120 mm guns is about 740 MPa, 760 MPa in case of L55A1, about 880 MPa for 130 mm L52.

All that values are lower than Safe Maximum Pressure, again gun-related, which is hard stop. Exceeding SMP means that tube would be plastically deformed.

Detailed desctiption of ordnance system pressures and relations between them is described by STANAG 4410.
 

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On 7/10/2022 at 1:42 AM, Serge said:

I’ve found this about ASCALON. 

in French

they say the 130mm Rheinmetall solution will reached its limit earlier because of the higher pressure chamber choice. 


That's magical thinking.

Unless the ASCALON is firing ammunition that burns at lower pressure than what the breech can handle, being lower pressure doesn't imply more growth potential.  That would imply that they're making the initial gun much stronger, which means thicker and heavier, than it needs to be for the initial ammunition offering.  That makes no sense.

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Early French 120 mm smoothbore APFSDS prototypes, the dates on the cartridges show the years 1976 and 1977. They are related to the AMX-30 valorisé program (related to AMX-32 development).

 

Source : The Tank Magazine, December 1978

 

rCsEDc0.jpg

 

Oq6MAwq.jpg

 

This can be linked to the gradual evolution of French 120 mm APFSDS throughout their development phase (note the OFL 120 G1 on the far right ) :

 

Source : COMHART, L'armement de gros calibre, 2008

 

go5uy4o.png

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  • 3 weeks later...
4 hours ago, Sovngard said:

125 mm ammunition next to a T-14 at ARMY-2022 International Military-Technical Forum, some propellant charges are salmon-coloured instead of the traditional orange color. 

Unknown APFSDS mockup, 3BM60 Svinets-2-like.

 

NSj1Ops.png

Higher power charges, different color so it will not be loaded by crews into older guns will be my guess.

 

Also, i think i see 2 GL-ATGMs on this pic.

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On 8/13/2022 at 1:18 AM, Collimatrix said:

Do they have any more pictures of that early sabot design?  It's quite unusual.

 

The arrow sits at the bottom base of the discarding sabot, like an APDS, in this case, the French call it "dépotable" (depositable) sabot and not "détachable" (discarding).

 

This one is even weirder, "depositable" sabot with unfolding fins, maybe a Brandt gun-mortar APFSDS round :

 

EnNBbrH.png

 

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On 8/16/2022 at 5:49 PM, Sovngard said:

125 mm ammunition next to a T-14 at ARMY-2022 International Military-Technical Forum, some propellant charges are salmon-coloured instead of the traditional orange color. 

Unknown APFSDS mockup, 3BM60 Svinets-2-like.

 

NSj1Ops.png

 Is that photo out of a "Bundeswehr" video?! Or where is the marker in the right lower corner coming from?

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50 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

 

An "exit full screen" button as found on YouTube and various other video platforms.

No, you are totally wrong!  It is a stylized Wehrmacht "Balkenkreuz" of the German Wehrmacht's YouTube channel.

 

Evidence (see number 5):

 

1920px-Balkenkreuz_variants.svg.png

 

I am surprised that you of all people would get this one wrong.

 

 

 

 

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