StuG III Thread (and also other German vehicles I guess)

[delete013]

3 hours ago, 2805662 said:

Dutch seem happy with it. 
 

Speaking of underperforming, here’s some pics of Lance 1.0.

 

 

 

 

 

First Australian Army turret conversion course. Pics: Private Jacob Hilton. 

Any info on why exactly the metal frame for the barrel was introduced?

[SH_MM]

4 hours ago, 2805662 said:

First Australian Army turret conversion course. Pics: Private Jacob Hilton. 

 

Note the laser warning receivers and the new integration of the SCM60 situational awareness cameras.

 

1 hour ago, delete013 said:

Any info on why exactly the metal frame for the barrel was introduced?

 

Better accuracy when firing on the move.

[SH_MM]

154 Puma IFVs will be upgraded to the S1 standard until 2026. The contract contains the option for the upgrade of a further 143 Pumas.

 

https://soldat-und-technik.de/2021/06/mobilitaet/27649/schuetzenpanzer-puma-modernisierung-auf-den-rueststand-s1-beauftragt/

[mr.T]

So cca 6.5mio Eur/unit upgrade to add MELLS and sort of Iron Vision for IFV that just entered service

 

[SH_MM]

1 hour ago, mr.T said:

So cca 6.5mio Eur/unit upgrade to add MELLS and sort of Iron Vision for IFV that just entered service

 

The contract entails a lot more than just MELLS and the new situational awareness system (which is not really comparable to Iron Vision). It includes

• the integration of MELLS
• changes preparing the hull for the installation of the turret independent secondary weapon system (TSWA)
• improved optics with for gunner and commander (greater magnification, color daylight cameras)
• the addition of a situational awarness system consisting of ~11 daylight and thermal camera modules (Rheinmetall SCM 60) with sensor-fusion capability
• the integration of the improved IdZ-ES soldier system and the new BMS' (BMS SitaWare Frontline for the vehicle, SitaWare TacNet for the soldiers)
• new digital radios as part of the D-LBO program
• improvements to reliability and system stability
• integration of new soft- and hardware interfaces (NGVA compliant) for future upgrades
• changes to the hull in order to raise the GVW to 45 metric tons
• improvements to the MUSS softkill APS (not sure if this already means MUSS 2.0 will be adopted)
• spare parts, tools and maintenance
• a study regarding potential future changes/improvements/upgrades

  

On 6/1/2021 at 3:52 PM, SH_MM said:

https://www.gov.si/novice/2021-05-28-vlada-seznanjena-z-nadaljevanjem-postopkov-glede-upravljanja-programa-boxer/

 

Slovenia is looking to purchase 48 Boxers with turret (armament up to 30 mm autocannon being considered) and has re-started to negotiate with OCCAR on the matter. Previous talks were halted in order to study how the new medium battalion should be set up and equipped. Machine translated text:

 

Slovenia wants to cooperate with Germany on the Boxer purchase.

 

 

[mr.T]

So after 17mio Eur inital price and 6.5mio eur Upgrade and some anexes Puma will be 25mio eur a pop

 

OCCAR seems co be clever way to push half dead over the budget euro systems around to get them built with joint financing, as for Slovenia , same Goverment crew that took Patria bribes is now all too eager to go for Boxer right after huge COVID debt burden to national finances,wonder what kind of backroom deals are availible at OCCAR ....................at minimum i expect they offer bunch of well paid no show jobs for ''buyers''.

 

 

[SH_MM]

The "€17 million initial price" is the total expected cost to reach the full operational capability as planned by the German MoD, i.e. all 350 Puma IFVs upgraded to the S2 standard with MELLS, the TSWA, situational awareness system etc. and development, spare parts, all maintenance and support contracts etc.

 

It is the full projected price of the complete program from the beginning to the projected end (i.e. Germany having 350 Puma S2 IFVs, operational ready and fully supported by the logistics). It is not the unit price for the original Puma IFV. The projected ~€1.9 billion for the upgrade of 154 Puma IFVs + 143 optional to the S1 configuration is already included in that figure.

 

 

OCCAR is not relevant to the Puma program and it is the wish of the Slovenian MoD to buy the Boxer; the Boxer is also not an "over the budget Euro system". Slovenia has to buy a new 8x8 after the Patria AMV contract was canceled (due to bribes) in order to meet its own goals and committments to NATO.

[SH_MM]

Regarding the MAN HX3 10x10 artillery variant:

 

 

Apparently the reason why Rheinmetall has not shown it firing yet is the fact, that it will be offered with the new 155 mm L/60 gun (the old L/52 gun can be fitted on customer request). It carries forty rounds of ammunition (projectiles + corresponding propellant charges) and has still 5 tonnes of growth potential. It can be operated remotely and (semi-)autonomous if desired. The turret can be fired at the whole 360° horizontal azimuth.

 

A very interesting offer. Rheinmetall seems to push for the HX3 as an alternative to the Boxer RCH155, but at the moment Germany is still expecting to field the old L/52 gun on the new wheeled SPG, mainly due to development schedules.

 

[2805662]

10 hours ago, SH_MM said:

Regarding the MAN HX3 10x10 artillery variant:

 

 

Apparently the reason why Rheinmetall has not shown it firing yet is the fact, that it will be offered with the new 155 mm L/60 gun (the old L/52 gun can be fitted on customer request). It carries forty rounds of ammunition (projectiles + corresponding propellant charges) and has still 5 tonnes of growth potential. It can be operated remotely and (semi-)autonomous if desired. The turret can be fired at the whole 360° horizontal azimuth.

 

A very interesting offer. Rheinmetall seems to push for the HX3 as an alternative to the Boxer RCH155, but at the moment Germany is still expecting to field the old L/52 gun on the new wheeled SPG, mainly due to development schedules.

 

Rheinmetall pushing the HX3 so that it minimises payments to external-to-Rheinmetall subcontractors. Boxer makes money for both Rheinmetall & KMW, HX3 makes money for Rheinmetall. 

[SH_MM]

Well, Rheinmetall is a profit-oriented business... so not really surprising. I think however this is mainly related to the fact that KMW (as part of KNDS) now helps marketing Nexter's truck-based CAESAR howitzer and Rheinmetall wants to compete against that. KNDS basically decides beforehand which of its two entities (KMW or Nexter) will offer their solutions to potential customers. This means the Boxer RCH 155 (a KMW product, despite being based on the Boxer hull) might not be offered to certain customers, if KNDS believes that the CAESAR is more likely to gain a contract. In such a case, Rheinmetall would end up seeing no dime. In theory KMW also offers the AGM on Iveco trucks, but due to the cost and maturity of CAESAR, the latter option seems to be KNDS' first choice.

 

So Rheinmetall's HX3-based artillery is IMO mostly aimed to compete against ATMOS, ARCHER, CAESAR, DANA, and the likes. It is being offered to Germany, as Germany's requirements for the future wheeled SPG at the current stage are still were open, though supposedly the people at the Bundeswehr's artillery school in Idar-Oberstein already have declared the Boxer RCH 155 as their favored option.

 

KMW is also working on a new IFV to compete with the KF31/KF41 Lynx on the international market. The forced withdrawal from the Czech IFV program seems to have killed faith in any export success of the Puma, even though feedback was generally positive until their last minute requirement changes.

 

[Rico]

Any informations about that IFV available?

[DIADES]

On 6/26/2021 at 8:53 PM, delete013 said:

Any info on why exactly the metal frame for the barrel was introduced?

Was always there.  It is a feature of the gun really.  There is a barrel support bearing about 500mm from the tip of the barrel.   Bushmaster by comparison is a conventional cantilever barrel 

[DIADES]

On 7/2/2021 at 8:47 PM, SH_MM said:

 

KMW is also working on a new IFV

Are they bidding this into omfv?

[DIADES]

On 6/26/2021 at 5:33 PM, 2805662 said:

Dutch seem happy with it. 

Are they?  They have gone to contract but it ain't in service yet so best case, the jury is still out.

[SH_MM]

New image of the LuWa demonstrator design:

 

[Reta]

On 7/5/2021 at 9:20 AM, DIADES said:

Are they?  They have gone to contract but it ain't in service yet so best case, the jury is still out.

Are you familiar with Lincoln's famous phrase which ends with "but you cannot fool all the people all the time"? Cause I don't think elbit are doing that. 8 or so different platforms for iron fist says  otherwise

 

[SH_MM]

6 hours ago, Reta said:

Are you familiar with Lincoln's famous phrase which ends with "but you cannot fool all the people all the time"? Cause I don't think elbit are doing that. 8 or so different platforms for iron fist says  otherwise

 

They have mounted their prototypes on many platforms, but every APS supplier has done that - that doesn't mean that the system has been fully integrated into the vehicles, has undergone full trials and was fully qualified. Take the (AMAP-)ADS for example, it has been fitted to the following vehicles in the past:

• AMV
• ASV/Commando
• Boxer
• Bronco
• CV90-120T
• Fuchs
• Leopard 2
• LMV
• MAN HX series of trucks
• Marder
• SEP
• VAB

Yet it has only been purchased once (by "an unspecified Leopard 2 user" aka Singapore) and is on order a second time (for the Hungarian KF41 Lynx). The German Army and the US Army both rejected the ADS as being still immature/not proven enough after the delivery of the (AMAP-)ADS systems for the Leopard 2 user/Singapore were already finished.

 

The Dutch famously ordered the new IF-LD version directly after it was revealed, making it at least seem questionable that the system has undergone full testing. Israel ordered the system months later and only on vehicles that could not support the weight of Trophy...

[Beer]

Few words about the let's say hottest issue about Czech IFV tender which got to public at the end of April. As I wrote here already at that time the minister of industry and trade (who is a deputy prime minister) suddenly went on public with a request to change the offset criteria. Two weeks later it was revealed by media that Rheinmetall offered basically what the minister asked for in a letter addressed to the prime minister on 9th December 2020. In short in the original requirements the MOD (both ministers are from the same party btw.) requested the final assembly and the service of the vehicles to be done under a licence in a full state-owned company VOP (for which MOD has little use now) and the total amount of the offset programme not to be under 40% of the total price of the deal.

 

Rheinmetall on the other hand offered to build a new facility within its own Ústí nad Labem (right at the German border) automotive plant which would be owned by a company shared by Rheinmetall and Czech Republic (51/49%). This company would be responsible for R&D and production of medium calibre turret systems (for any Rheinmetall vehicles or contracts) and a final assembly of Czech vehicles (at least). It would be also a licence holder for the vehicle. The complete hulls would be produced in Hungary while Hungary would get turrets from Czech Republic and do the final assembly in Hungary. Rheinmetall offered to add potential future contracts such as for Slovakia in the future portfolio. Rheinmetall also confirmed in the letter that it already signed contracts with some Czech subcontractors related to the Hungarian deal and that they intend to enlarge Czech subdeliveries to armor components, APS components and electro-optical devices. 

 

From Rheinmetall side all is very logical. They would optimize their production chain in Europe and also the product price which would likely allow them to grow their sales to another countries. The total offset value for Czech republic would be likely higher as well but the state-owned enterprise VOP would be put aside and Rheinmetall would keep control over the production facility.  Most likely very little would change for the local subcontractors who often already supply Rheinmetall anyway. 

 

It's not publically known what other competitors offered but it is reasonable to consider this situation to be a primary reason why they reqested to prolong the deadline for the final offer. In any case now it is clear that this government won't put the final stamp on the contract and it is very likely that neither of the two current ministers will have a word in the final decision... 

 

The Rheinmetall letter (in Czech) is here (scan): https://www.irozhlas.cz/zpravy-domov/bojova-vozidla-pechtoy-havlicek-metnar_2105101112_pj

[Rico]

Welcome to Rheinmetall lobbyism which will clearly end in Lynx being chosen.

I am not saying it is a bad choice but if military aspects would count CV90 would be the way to go for.

[SH_MM]

 

[Wiedzmin]

 

 

[Stimpy75]

Marder Turret?Nice!

 i always wondered why they didn't put sth bigger than 20mm later on?

[Serge]

They were test until 30mm at least. 

[Stimpy75]

i know they tested a lot of guns but they didn't put them into service...i am more surprised by the new users of the Marder that they didn't upgrade the gun..at least to 25 mm so they have the same ammo  like for example Jordan who also use YPR-765 with 25mm canons

[Serge]

To much expensive.