The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Khand-e]

It's possible they had more, as it's known they had many test samples of M193 and SS109/M855 to work with when developing the 5.8x42mm

[Alex C.]

Indeed. It is likely a few exist at the Norinco HQ.

[Meplat]

No, because that implies that the other side is human. It'd be more like

 

"Pre-ban Vietnam bringback!!! RARE!!! NO PAYPAL"

Saw that used once with a MkIII Hi Power. Obviously "brought back" by a time traveler.

[Sturgeon]

My buddy Nick, who posts here as Oedipus Wrecks-In-Effect, just posted this to WTA, on beginner shooting:
 

So a new hunter, someone who's never reached out consistently past 100 yards, would be taking 600-800 yard shots? That's a joke. 

Sohmdaddy,

I've got a few points to make with your rifle choice,

The Ruger Scout is a bit heavy for what it is. The short barrel isn't conducive to longer shots in .308. It is, under field conditions, perfectly adequate for 300 yard shots if you do your part. However, vital shots at these ranges (Which must be made, no matter what you shoot with) will take skill and practice. 

The field is not the bench. You will be much less accurate. Your heart rate will be higher, you wont have a perfect rest, and your distances wont be in increments of 100 yards. Keep this in mind. 

If you can shoot 1" circles at 100 yards, you'll be shooting 3-4" at field conditions. Especially if you're new to this. And ESPECIALLY if you see that big buck and catch buck fever.  


EDIT: Just saw the MSRP was over $1,100.... Wow.

However, my BIGGEST issue with this rifle is the price. You are looking at around $1,100 for just the rifle. This is unreasonable for your first foray into hunting. My advice is to save money on the rifle and look at rifles such as the Howa 1500, Savage Axis, etc. The Savage Axis is my choice. At 6.5 pounds in .308, free floated, and very reasonable at $300, you will be left with plenty of money for a nice scope. 

Spend your money on glass and ammo, not the rifle. Pick up a Nikon Prostaff on sale for the end of the year and some decent rings. A set-up such as this will set you on the right path for mechanical accuracy. 

It'll look a bit like this. 



The Ruger's magazine sticks out far too much for only 10 rounds. And you don't need 10 rounds in the gun to hunt with. Don't call me a Fudd, because I'll never tell you how many rounds you need. But if a magazine sticks out like my old FN FAL mags and holds half as many?   No thanks. I'll take half the rounds in the rifle's magazine but keep the external magazine out of my way when shooting from prone. 

A proper hunting set-up for $500 can be had, and will outperform the Ruger Scout in all areas that you'll find important to hunting. Balance, range, price, money for glass, etc. 

Now, contrary to what you'll hear on the internet, the .308 is perfectly adequate for nearly all hunting situations if bullet selection is correct. Bullet selection will be different for white tails and elks.  As will the point of aim for heavier bullet selections, so take this in mind as well. 

But the biggest thing is placement. I've tracked far too many gut-shot white tails and mule deer in my day, and most were shot by guys with brand new ultra-magnum rounds in expensive rifles with cheap glass. Don't be one of those guys. Get behind your rifle at the range and shoot it until your shoulder screams, then go back in a few days and shoot it again. The more practice you get before your boots touch foot in the bush, the better.

Now, that being said...

If that Ruger Scout  just tickles you in the right way, and you've got a fire in your wallet, I can't stop you.  But if you're looking to gear up you AND your wife, you're looking at nearly $3000 JUST for rifles and scopes. And that's ridiculous for just getting into hunting. 

For perspective, I was popping white-tail with an old Russian SKS when I was 10 years old. It was purchased over 30 years ago by my father. 129ish grain soft points at 100 yards would do the trick if I did my part. Deer tastes great. Be sure to take plenty of pictures of your first kill, and make plenty of jerky.  

 

[Khand-e]

Well since we've established that Brick Fight is a fucking NERD who loves mysteries, lets play the mystery of "Where the fuck did these come from and how did they get inside my house?"

 

.....I'm not joking, I seriously have no fucking idea.

 

[Sturgeon]

Two neat things at FW this week:

Part 1 of a series on the Maxim guns

 

A translated Soviet document about NATO weapons

 

The money quote of that second one is the very first line:

 

"The main function of small arms, as is well known, is to inflict damage on the enemy during close combat, i.e., when the employment of other weapons would entail the risk of striking one's own forces that are in close contact with the enemy forces."

[Sturgeon]

BTW, remember how much shit I took for saying that the advantage gained because of the automatic fire capability of the MP.44 was rather limited?
 

It's no secret that you're talking about a 50-100% advantage in rate of fire and hits on target when going from a manually-operated firearm to a semiautomatic one. Compare that to the 22% advantage the AKM enjoys in the chart above. That assumes, by the way, that you have the ammunition supply lines you need to fire fully automatic all the time, which the Germans of course did not.

Now, throw the smaller magazine size of the M1 in there, and you get a slightly different number (closer to the 9.3 of the Russian MAS-49/56, listed there as the "M58"), something like another third in rate of fire.

I'm not saying this is not a big deal or not worthwhile, of course, just that people lose their goddamn minds over the Germans having an intermediate select-fire rifle in WWII, when it just wasn't all that meaningful, especially since they never were able to field them in large numbers (nor, given their production record, would they have been even if they'd started the project years earlier).

[Brick Fight]

I like that Ian's comment section tries, but it honestly looks like everyone who comments on his site writes stuff in English, translates it into a different language on Babelfish, then translates it back.

[Donward]

I approve of every fucking thing said in the post Sturgeon quoted about hunting.

[LoooSeR]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/30/ak-107-balanced-action-rifle-slow-motion-larry-vickers-moscow-trip/

 

 

Just watched the AK-107 vid.

 

Holy ever-living fuck.  The balanced recoil system is stupid effective. The goddamned muzzle barely twitches on full auto even on high speed.

 

Fuck.

 

Mind=Blown.

 

 

Watching a video of just how well that works is literally mind blowing. 

 

Ok, I want one now.

 

Posting here because GLORIOUS SOVIET RUSSIAN TECH

[Sturgeon]

All this talk of bolt guns gives me an ever so slight twinge of butthurt that I dropped my precision build to snag a CMP M1 while it was hot.

I mean, I don't regret doing that but TIKKA CTRS ARE SUPER COOL AND I WANT ONE.

[Tied]

Well this is getting passed around again. People with zero experience with firearms claiming this somehow makes the AK "as unrealible as an early M16" 

 

 

By people who conveniently forget that their last test the M1 stopped firing completely 

[Waffentrager]

People will try anything to try and bash proven firearms of a prior age. 

 

 

On the note of the Kalashnikov,

 

 

[Tied]

People will try anything to try and bash proven firearms of a prior age. 

 

 

On the note of the Kalashnikov,

 

 

 

"German stg-44 was a major influence"

 

that, right there, is the perfect moment to shut off the video

[Brick Fight]

I just rarely get excited about those kinds of tests no matter the gun. Sure, if you take desert dirt soup and throw it into any receiver, it's gonna be bad times, but when does that come up? The most I do with any gun is carry my Savage 4C or Mosin M44 through the Appalachians for a few days a year. Unless I have to fight off the Caramel Monsters from Mars in the middle of a Quicksand Farm, I don't see the point from a consumer awareness standpoint for anybody but someone who patrols through Texas dustbowls and doesn't have access to water and a dry rag.

[Khand-e]

I personally always dip my guns in a pool of the blood of my enemies after a healthy dose of coagulants before using them.

 

It just makes them more deadly.

[Waffentrager]

"German stg-44 was a major influence"

 

that, right there, is the perfect moment to shut off the video

 

I knew you'd like that part. Besides his clear error regarding the AK/STG point, I think he did an over all good general roundup of the series, his narrating voice included. 

[Sturgeon]

People will try anything to try and bash proven firearms of a prior age. 

 

 

On the note of the Kalashnikov,

 

 

 

I've emailed back and forth with the guy who makes those videos. They're a decent introduction to their topics for people who just play videogames, but he's prone to error. Such as, for example, the operating rod silhouette of the MP.44 being superimposed over the rifle's receiver upside down.

I discuss where the AK's design features come from in this post.

[Waffentrager]

I've emailed back and forth with the guy who makes those videos. They're a decent introduction to their topics for people who just play videogames, but he's prone to error. Such as, for example, the operating rod silhouette of the MP.44 being superimposed over the rifle's receiver upside down.

I discuss where the AK's design features come from in this post.

 

He's not the best informant by any means. I've had to point out errors regarding some of his american videos as well (not to him). But he does best in his editing and narration, so its pleasing to look at. 

 

He moved away from firearms, no doubt because theyre too complex for him to fully handle outside of gaming standards. 

[Sturgeon]

I knew you'd like that part. Besides his clear error regarding the AK/STG point, I think he did an over all good general roundup of the series, his narrating voice included. 

 

It's not really an error, Russians are just proud and the commonfolk get too excited about the MP.44's significance. I've dun bout beat this horse to death, so I'll just link you the relevant posts:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/02/sturmgewehr-assault-rifle-developments-prior-1942/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/28/the-sturmgewehr-larry-vickers-and-the-first-assault-rifle/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/12/7-reasons-i-am-not-impressed-with-the-sturmgewehr/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/18/the-rsc-mle-1917-the-m1-garand-and-the-stg-44/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/27/gun-guy-radio-the-sturmgewehr-in-context/

In short, the MP.44 was an influence, but I wouldn't cite it as a "key" influence. The Russians would have come up with some kind of an assault rifle had the German program never existed, but it might have taken shape a bit differently.

And the MP.44 only just barely influenced Western development. It's a much less significant gun than common wisdom holds, but it's not insignificant.

[Brick Fight]

So, I've finally set my eyes on getting an M1 Carbine, and have actually put down some bids on Gunbroker with nothing for me yet. One thing I have noticed is that Ivers don't tend to get the higher asking prices of other Carbine makers. Is there something to that?

[Tied]

I just rarely get excited about those kinds of tests no matter the gun. Sure, if you take desert dirt soup and throw it into any receiver, it's gonna be bad times, but when does that come up? The most I do with any gun is carry my Savage 4C or Mosin M44 through the Appalachians for a few days a year. Unless I have to fight off the Caramel Monsters from Mars in the middle of a Quicksand Farm, I don't see the point from a consumer awareness standpoint for anybody but someone who patrols through Texas dustbowls and doesn't have access to water and a dry rag.

 

 

 

ya, general tests (dirt, sand, water, light to and then to extreme mud), meltdowns are more my speed

 

because it represents general reality of the firearm more than the equivalent of driving several models of pickup trucks at 90kph into anti-tank obstacles, and then comparing "safety"

 

There just some conditions where no rifle can be expected to succeed moderately, so pushing everything to the extreme all the time every time rules out the factors of individual traits to shine through

 

Im not gonna lie, ive had issues with spare Kalashnikov's here and there, but of my 30+ years of firearms experience, i can count them on two hands and not go any further

 

thats a pretty good track record in my mind, and judging by the amount of cell phones i burn through, its not like im gentle 

[Sturgeon]

So, I've finally set my eyes on getting an M1 Carbine, and have actually put down some bids on Gunbroker with nothing for me yet. One thing I have noticed is that Ivers don't tend to get the higher asking prices of other Carbine makers. Is there something to that?

 

Yeah; they suck.

Get a wartime gun.

[Sturgeon]

I just rarely get excited about those kinds of tests no matter the gun. Sure, if you take desert dirt soup and throw it into any receiver, it's gonna be bad times, but when does that come up? The most I do with any gun is carry my Savage 4C or Mosin M44 through the Appalachians for a few days a year. Unless I have to fight off the Caramel Monsters from Mars in the middle of a Quicksand Farm, I don't see the point from a consumer awareness standpoint for anybody but someone who patrols through Texas dustbowls and doesn't have access to water and a dry rag.

 

The reason I harp on it is to try to convey that there were major improvements made to the basic Garand mechanism as it sort of trickled down to the AK. This is important because the US arms program during the exact same period wholly failed to take advantage of any of these improvements in development that led to the M14, despite being well aware that these issues existed.

 

And also because it's funny to openly say that the AR-15 is better than the M1 on the internet.

[Waffentrager]

Don't know where to post this and since the topic of AK series is still relevant, maybe one of you can assist me. 

 

 

I went to Nepal when I was young on a trip to help out the issues that have been going on poverty wise. Long story short a friend I made there gave me a bayonet he held close to him, I've had it for almost 10 years now and just kept it in very poor shape (I'll take blame for that). Though I don't exactly know its origins besides the fact it may be a AK style bayonet, sure one of you can tell me the specific model.

 

 

Large pictures, taken from mobile. So I'll just post the links.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ZMxAl6C.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/lss7WUM.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/2oLlJ15.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/oarQGDX.jpg