The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Sturgeon]

for a civilian round, I was thinking a 6x30mm cartridge with either a standard caliber spitzer point style round or a .204 caliber sabot loading (AP, frangible or aluminum based ballistic tipped rounds ideally) at around 55,000 PSI (not a huge stretch, 5.7x28mm runs around 52,000 memory serve me.) because, as we established from that discussion Stancrist started on the 5.8x42mm, people literally think 0.15mm would make some massive difference in terminal performance for whatever reason, the difference in effect between .22, 23 and .24 caliber is obviously trivial in reality, but if a slight increase in caliber is what gets people to buy it, then when in Rome....

 

The second was it's really close to the dimensions of the 5.7x28mm (and FN couldn't potentially go back to ammo nazi status on it), which is good, as the FiveSeven can beat the shit out of nearly any other design in magazine capacity. Also, I originally chose the design based on the 6x35mm KAC that's been decapitated by 5mm and was even drawing it up, but considering the KAC as far as I know has a base diameter of 9.6mm like the .221 Fireball, I thought it over and decided something around 8.5mm would be better for a pistol sized weapon where you want maximum capacity and a lower ammo weight.

 

One thing about sabots though is, while I do think they're a really good idea for future pistol designs, on the civilian market, it *might* give the ATF a reason to bitch about it as an armor piercing handgun round no matter what bullet type it's loaded with, they've done or attempted dumber things regarding the subject before so I wouldn't put it past them, mainly considering how much flak the 5.7x28mm got around it's release even without AP rounds and still gets to some extent to this day. However for law enforcement and military use I'd absolutely recommend them, though your cartride may be better for those purposes since it already uses established NATO and popular law enforcement calibers.

 

I'll try and draw up a design including bullet weights and lengths, I have a few in mind I'd like to plug into Powley's to see how they do.

 

I've done quite a bit of work in advanced pistol calibers, and there's really no reason to not be completely blown-out, bore-wise. So, take your case head, maths your case taper, subtract your wall thickness, and that's your caliber. No arguing. You can have a ghost shoulder like .300 Blackout, but that's it.

45,000 PSI is safe for the 10mm case head of 9mm, and since I wanted some degree of backwards compatibility, that's what I used. .22 SCAMP, for instance, is well over 50,000 PSI, and it uses a 7.something mm case head, so there are smaller more efficient alternatives that probably require a bit more work to make happen. 9mm in one form or another has been around for well over a century, so I honestly don't expect that architecture to bend too much just to gain a few more rounds in the least important part of the mag (the end) while sacrificing all the existing architecture. 

 

Re: ATF regs, it would be a major upset for them to rule anything with a frangible bullet as AP. I am not saying it couldn't happen, but it would cause a backlash that would make the M855 response look cute. It would basically set a precedent for the banning of all small arms ammunition. That's why I went with a Mk255 RRLP-derived design in my concept. If you wanted to throw a solid steel slug in there, you could, sure, but the RRLP-type design makes it very difficult for the ATF to handle.

 

All in all a good discussion. Like you, I believe a truly successful SCHV pistol is right around the corner, but I think it will take the abandonment of the "rifle round in a pistol package" mentality to get there.

[Sturgeon]

It gets really strange because we have a shittonne of ATMs here (along with every spaza shop and streetside stall having a card reader) so you bump into these dudes the entire time. They all seem to get the same uniform (in blue or black): cap, button-up shirt, trousers, black lace-up boots, flack jacket (with a few mags in the pouch), R5 and fuck-off stare. There might be a sidearm or utility belt if the guard was feeling really creative that day.

 

 

 

Obligatory image of someone's day going badly wrong:

 

 

...All your ATMs have armed guards?

 

[Toxn]

...All your ATMs have armed guards?

 

No, there are just a lot of them and they get used a lot. So any given day at the mall is likely to include the arrival of some of the folk I described above to put in/take out cash from the machines.

[Sturgeon]

No, there are just a lot of them and they get used a lot. So any given day at the mall is likely to include the arrival of some of the folk I described above to put in/take out cash from the machines.

 

Ahah. And they have R5 assault rifles. Because South Africa is much safer with gun control? Huehuehuehuehueh.

[Toxn]

No, there are just a lot of them and they get used a lot. So any given day at the mall is likely to include the arrival of some of the folk I described above to put in/take out cash from the machines.

 

Speaking of armed guards, a very South African thing I saw once was when I was driving to varsity one morning (years ago) through the 'burbs. Now, pretty much every house in the suburbs has security (barbed wire,electric fences and an alarm), so it's really common to see a response vehicle parked outside one as you drive past. Usually to deal with a false alarm or accidental panic-button press. 

 

What made this one interesting was that the guard was leaving the house (they usually just chat with you at the door) while putting his shirt back on. My guess is that that household saw more than its fair share of alarm malfunctions while the wife was at home. Although, in her defence, the lady had good taste - the guard was lean, handsome and literally paid to come in and rescue her from danger.

 

Now, I can't say I actually saw a well-heeled lady run out to help the guard back into his vest. But the image completes the story perfectly so I'm going to leave it in.

[Toxn]

Ahah. And they have R5 assault rifles. Because South Africa is much safer with gun control? Huehuehuehuehueh.

Wut?

[Sturgeon]

Wut?

 

Armored car crews armed with select-fire assault rifles, and suburban homes with electrified barbed-wire fences are not at all common here in the horrible, gun-plagued US of A.

[Toxn]

Armored car crews armed with select-fire assault rifles, and suburban homes with electrified barbed-wire fences are not at all common here in the horrible, gun-plagued USA.

I'm really confused right now. Are you arguing with someone?

[Donward]

Outside of Bill Gates' mansion you'll see well-armed dude, or rather you won't see them. It's just rare in the US to see armed security, particularly anyone with more than a handgun.

At least that's how it is in the Pacific Northwest.

[Sturgeon]

I'm really confused right now. Are you arguing with someone?

 

Yes, my friend Bob, who's always up for an argument. Tell them how you're doin', Bob! How're the wife and kids? Little Johnny still getting straight As in school? Glad to hear it!

[Toxn]

Outside of Bill Gates' mansion you'll see well-armed dude, or rather you won't see them. It's just rare in the US to see armed security, particularly anyone with more than a handgun.

At least that's how it is in the Pacific Northwest.

You live in a strange land, guy-who-likes-leverguns.

[Toxn]

Yes, my friend Bob, who's always up for an argument. Tell them how you're doin', Bob! How're the wife and kids? Little Johnny still getting straight As in school? Glad to hear it!

This Bob guy apparently has some weird ideas regarding the root causes of crime.

[Sturgeon]

You live in a strange land, guy-who-likes-leverguns.

 

A strange land where the guy who shoots you is more likely to be the old guy with the pocket-carried .380 automatic than the uniformed assault-rifle-wielding hired goon, yup.

 

And we like it that way!

[Sturgeon]

This Bob guy apparently has some weird ideas regarding the root causes of crime.

 

You are reading waaaaay too much into this. It was a friendly jab, not a call for a town hall meeting.

[Toxn]

You are reading waaaaay too much into this. It was a friendly jab, not a call for a town hall meeting.

You see, that's our secret: we don't have a town hall.

[Toxn]

A strange land where the guy who shoots you is more likely to be the old guy with the pocket-carried .380 automatic than the uniformed assault-rifle-wielding hired goon, yup.

 

And we like it that way!

In fairness to hired goons and old guys with .380s, the person most likely to shoot you is always you.

[Sturgeon]

You see, that's our secret: we don't have a town hall.

That's why all your guards need assault rifles! Lack of democraceh!

[Sturgeon]

In fairness to hired goons and old guys with .380s, the person most likely to shoot you is always you.

 

That's only true if you're the kind of nitwit who wants to off himself tho.

[Sturgeon]

Oh. My. Fucking. God.
 

Here Are The Gripes I Still Have With The Industry
By the end of the last century, the firearms industry should have a number of design issues pretty well figured out.  Sadly there are a few that somehow have made it into this century.  I’ve listed my top five and welcome designers and users to add theirs as well.

Number 1: Use Of Threaded Fasteners
In 1894, George Mauser developed the Broomhandle Mauser.  It was an ingenious design, with interlocking pieces requiring no tools for disassembly.  Only two screws were used in the entire design, and these held on the right and left grip panels.  Legend has it that Mr. Mauser cried because he couldn’t figure out how to attach the grips any other way.  At a point in time, well over a century ago, George Mauser recognized the problems with threaded fasteners in small arms.  Today, many in the gun industry and militaries around the world have all but forgotten the valuable lesson he tried to teach us.

It is a fact that threaded fasteners can fasten parts together securely in a quick and easy manner, and are often the only available means of securing two or more parts.  The problem is that vibration from firing loosens fasteners; making screws back out and causes nuts, bolts, and lock washers to fall off.

The solution du jour is to use liquid products called “thread lockers.”  One of the better known brands is known as Loctite.  This gooey liquid comes in various colors, each one indicating a different gripping level and some levels even require heat before they can be loosened.

When properly applied and used in applications where temperatures do not exceed 300°F (149°C), Loctite and the others do their job.  Where firearms manufacturers and armorers get into trouble usually occurs during gun assembly.  Conditions for application must be ideal as this stuff can’t be applied over grease or other improperly prepared surface.  Even on an ideally prepared surface, apply too little and retention suffers, apply too much and there is a messy accumulation that is difficult to clean and can potentially interfere with the operation of the weapon.

After application it is generally impossible to check for the presence of a thread locker, so one is never sure if the thread has been properly “Loctited” or not.  If at all possible, thread lockers should be avoided in small arms.

Besides thread lockers, there are ways to successfully use threaded fasteners.  These include lock wire, cotter pins, and special washers with tabs that can be bent afterwards to prevent the fastener from backing out.  Other, less elegant methods involve welding the threads or the head after securing or deforming the threads in rivet-like fashion, once the proper amount of torque is applied.  Nobody likes any of these solutions, as they are a nuisance to install and remove.  Almost all of the successful locking methods involve a sharp edge hazard as well.  I hate threaded fasteners.  If you have any doubts about that, just ask anyone who has ever worked with me.  I figure, if George Mauser beat the system in the 1800s, why can’t we?

 

I have been arguing against "threaded fasteners" (read: screws) ever since I was but a pupae in small arms design theory. It actually feels honoring to hear this coming from such a small arms legend as Kontis. Holy shit.

[Toxn]

That's only true if you're the kind of nitwit who wants to off himself tho.

I'm just speaking statistically, here. Suicide/death by accident is just more likely than murder in the US (12.1/100 000 versus 3.8/100 000). Ergo, owning a gun means that you're much more likely to get killed by it than by another person.

 

Of course, South Africa is in the pretty unusual position of actually having a lower suicide rate than murder rate.

[Bronezhilet]

Of course, South Africa is in the pretty unusual position of actually having a lower suicide rate than murder rate.

In other words: A giant shithole? 

[Toxn]

That's why all your guards need assault rifles! Lack of democraceh!

We have plenty of democraceh, bruh. Why, today you can even vote for two other viable* parties (the DA and EFF) when choosing another five years of ANC rule!

 

 

* Which means you can fuck right off, VF+ and COPE.

[Toxn]

In other words: A giant shithole? 

I've mentioned this before, but the joke is that even our sky-high murder rate (down to 31/100 000!) leaves you roughly on par with transport-related deaths (5000 a year for both) and well under the biggest killers in our country: TB (50 000 a year), flu and pneumonia (40 000 a year), HIV (20 000 a year) and diabetes (20 000 a year).

 

Which is to say that, if you're worried about extending your lifespan, you would be equally served by cutting down on travel time and infinitely better served by wearing a condom and leaving the sugar alone.

 

I figure that this general pattern is similar all over.

[Toxn]

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

 

 

I have been arguing against "threaded fasteners" (read: screws) ever since I was but a pupae in small arms design theory. It actually feels honoring to hear this coming from such a small arms legend as Kontis. Holy shit.

The rest of it seemed pretty pertinent as well.

 

God knows I how much I would curse when I inevitably lost the important pin in the dust or whatever while trying to clean things.

[Sturgeon]

I'm just speaking statistically, here. Suicide/death by accident is just more likely than murder in the US (12.1/100 000 versus 3.8/100 000). Ergo, owning a gun means that you're much more likely to get killed by it than by another person.

 

Of course, South Africa is in the pretty unusual position of actually having a lower suicide rate than murder rate.

 

No, it does not "ergo", brah. The suicide rate in the US is high, yes, and a lot of suicides happen at the muzzle of a gun, true. That does not mean you're more likely to die by your own gun than by another's gun! Absolutely not. Set the numbers aside and use your head for a moment. Are you a person inclined towards suicide? No? That excludes you from a large portion of those suicides. Are you a person inclined towards impulsive behavior? No? That excludes you from a large portion of the remaining suicides. Are you a person who takes financial or personal risks? No? That excludes you from yet another large portion of the increasingly dwindling number of suicides applicable to you. Are you outside the ages of 15-34? That yet again excludes you from another portion of suicide deaths.

Of course, there are quite a few 15-34 year old risk-taking, impulsive, depressed people who are very likely to shoot themselves to death. They exist in the USA. Something like 21,000 per year actually commit. 

 

That's one of the problems with statistics. If one subpopulation of folks has a ridiculously high risk of something, then the whole population exhibits a statistical risk of that thing. Suicides are a great example of this, in the US. Now, to a certain extent, they are unpredictable, but that does not justify scare stats like "you're more likely to kill yourself with your gun than someone else is to kill you with their gun". That's honestly bullcrap, or we'd be hearing all the damn time about the latest gun celeb who shot himself. Further, you're forgetting to include DGUs, that's "defensive gun uses" for those folks who don't immerse themselves daily in this shit. DGU estimates are incredibly difficult to accurately pin down, but they range from 55,000 to 4.7 million per year, depending on method and probably political agenda. Even that 55,000 number is way way in excess of the 21,000 firearms suicides per year number, so one could conservatively estimate that owning a gun is twice as likely to save your life as it is to take it - again, that's with ignoring the special circumstances of a large proportion of suicides that don't apply to many people. In the interests of fairness, I should point out that I am also assuming every DGU prevented a death - clearly not true, but with a range of 55K to 4.7 mil, I don't feel too bad about it. All three of my DGUs, for example, have been in circumstances I felt my life was in danger.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the stats are lying to you. Suicides are substantially accounted for by people who have serious mental health issues - yes, a certain proportion of those are "had a bad day" suicides, but that number isn't the whole 21,000 total. Further, the number of people killed in defensive gun uses is not even remotely reflected of the number of DGUs that have saved lives, nor is the number of people murdered (about 16K) reflective of the number of people whose lives were threatened. It's entirely possible, and I know quite a few people who would fiercely contend, that the number of DGUs in this country illustrate a number of prevented murders that far exceeds the number of suicides by firearm.