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Sturgeon's House

The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.


Khand-e

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1 minute ago, Ramlaen said:

I didn't watch the whole video but from what I did see this guy is mostly upset that the army didn't treat the Sig as multiple guns.

 

 

 

Chris Bartocci, bless his soul (I do like the guy), seems to have decided he's on Team Glock, and has been repeating Glock's narrative on FB and elsewhere for a while now.

I gotta ask, Glock and their ducklings all claim to want what's best for the soldier, but if that's the case why do they want a 13 year procurement program to drag on even longer and reintroduce the risk of total program failure (which by the way befalls 99% of Army programs)?


I agree that Glock probably has the better pistol (not sure they have the better overall package as that includes a lot of other stuff like ammo and suppressors and shit, and I'm not sure what's in Glock's), but jesus christ people, get a grip.

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18 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

I have now watched Bartocci's video twice. It is plainly obvious to me that he has not thoroughly read the MHS RFP. Article to go up sometime soon.

INB4 373 comments worth of nickel-plated retardation that all of your posts somehow generate.

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Woohoo.... And the butthurt shall flow like fine wine at an orgy thrown by Nero...

 

Private fifth class... Errr ... Major tom will say retarded shit

 

That other guy like pf5c tom will say something that tops even toms stupidity

 

22windbag will tell everyone the program will fail anyway because they aren't using ammunition that costs as many dollars as the bullet weighs in grains 

 

Iksnilol will find a way to make the whole issue homoerotic

 

And a good time will be had by all

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Honestly it doesn't matter because who cares what sidearm you have in a military situation? Many veterans I spoke to in Iraq didn't even carry one and just ditched them for extra rifle magazines, an extra canteen of water, or more under barrel grenades.

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13 minutes ago, Ramlaen said:

This guy hit the nail on the head, it doesn't matter how much 'better' one gun is if they both pass the minimum specs.

 

qSTEbG4.jpg

 

He's totally right, and i hate having to agree with him because my personal preference is always to build the absolute best system we can still mass produce economically.... Which with time and money spent on MHS to get to a contract winner it's unquestionably certain in my mind that a revolutionary pistol ammunition and production technologies to make both could have been brought to life!

 

But realistically, absolutely none of it is needed to do 99% of the tasks this service pistol is being bought to do!

 

Really you just need to counter green on blue, sudden jihad syndrome outbreaks, and be able to shoot your way out of a sitdown with local warlords...

 

This basically precludes the need to penetrate even soft armor almost entirely, same with the need to shoot past 15 meters at absolutely worst! (Truthfully most non snake eater pistol use in the GWOT has been at closer to 15cm than 15 meters, so there goes red dots roland specials and major power factor / MV over 1400 fps!)

 

Between the above factors and JAG saying fuck it to forbidding jhp plus the womenfolk situation i totally see why a hilariously high bore axis boring modular pistol in stupid 9 & 40 is fine... I don't like it but i get it!

 

Given my druthers we'd have ended up with a 7-8mm round loosely based off 7 penna and 7.92 vbr (likely using a fully developed version of Van Bruane Rik's GP AP pistol ammo concepts as GI ammo) with very high MV's and total projectile weights of no more than 95 grains. By very high i mean make 7.62 tokarev look SLOW high...

 

We'd fire this out of a rotating barrel multilug short recoil pistol designed with a nearly inline feedpath like bubbits designed for the enhanced caracals and a capacity of 17-21+1 in a magazine with dimensions similar to g19 mags and height from baseplate to top of rear sight that's g19 height or less! Additionally great care would be taken to "cheat" the point of the gripframe where your thumb wraps around and the trigger placement specifically to make a true double column magazine pistol still capable of fitting very small hands with the smallest backstrap and grip panel option.

 

 It would very probably also have a bbl length that is shockingly long for the overall length of the gun to achieve the very high MV's even in compact versions. Said long bbl would also get help from something along the lines of the CT ammo nose cap which would function as a pseudosabot type deal as well as making the bullet nose less pointy and likely to gall gouge or etc internals of the pistols. The ammunition would almost certainly use a newer case technology like ultrathin wall stainless or polymers. Either way utilizing coatings etc to get best powder burn efficiency at acceptable heat transfer, peak pressure, and residual pressure after bullet exits the muzzle... I'm not too concerned at all about either throat erosion or other wear characteristics because very good coatings and fairly ubiquitous automated barrel reconditioning and repair gear is about to be a very real thing... See this years NDIA presentation coverage on TFB for specifics. The barrel would also be very likely to have mild taper bore characteristics and if necessary gain twist rifling. 

 

How the f*** do you think you can justify going so fancy on the barrel? 

 

Simple, in a very real way the barrel makes or breaks this gun and will likely be a major portion of the manufacturing costs per pistol. The rest of it is pretty well tailored to be very very cheap to make, and frankly the barrels will be cheap to repair almost indefinitely once the resources are in place.

 

The slide will take several cues from the gsh-18 including being primarily "stamped" from a single piece of heavy gauge steel along with integrating a similar second set of radial bbl lugs with a "bbl bushing" having similar cutouts to gsh-18. 

 

From there there'd basically be a fuck ton of potential fitout options and degrees of complexity/ feature integration, but overall you'd end up with something smaller, lighter, cheaper, and far deadlier than current offerings.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Khand-e said:

Honestly it doesn't matter because who cares what sidearm you have in a military situation, many veterans I spoke to in Iraq didn't even carry one and just ditched them for extra rifle magazines, an extra canteen of water, or more under barrel grenades.

 

Apparently green on blue types are like Republican congressmen, George Michael, and child molesters... They like attacking people on the shitter etc...

 

But i guess if you don't drop the soap and keep a communal shower and shitter glock all will be ok

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2 hours ago, roguetechie said:

 

He's totally right, and i hate having to agree with him because my personal preference is always to build the absolute best system we can still mass produce economically.... Which with time and money spent on MHS to get to a contract winner it's unquestionably certain in my mind that a revolutionary pistol ammunition and production technologies to make both could have been brought to life!

 

But realistically, absolutely none of it is needed to do 99% of the tasks this service pistol is being bought to do!

 

Really you just need to counter green on blue, sudden jihad syndrome outbreaks, and be able to shoot your way out of a sitdown with local warlords...

 

This basically precludes the need to penetrate even soft armor almost entirely, same with the need to shoot past 15 meters at absolutely worst! (Truthfully most non snake eater pistol use in the GWOT has been at closer to 15cm than 15 meters, so there goes red dots roland specials and major power factor / MV over 1400 fps!)

 

Between the above factors and JAG saying fuck it to forbidding jhp plus the womenfolk situation i totally see why a hilariously high bore axis boring modular pistol in stupid 9 & 40 is fine... I don't like it but i get it!

 

Given my druthers we'd have ended up with a 7-8mm round loosely based off 7 penna and 7.92 vbr (likely using a fully developed version of Van Bruane Rik's GP AP pistol ammo concepts as GI ammo) with very high MV's and total projectile weights of no more than 95 grains. By very high i mean make 7.62 tokarev look SLOW high...

 

We'd fire this out of a rotating barrel multilug short recoil pistol designed with a nearly inline feedpath like bubbits designed for the enhanced caracals and a capacity of 17-21+1 in a magazine with dimensions similar to g19 mags and height from baseplate to top of rear sight that's g19 height or less! Additionally great care would be taken to "cheat" the point of the gripframe where your thumb wraps around and the trigger placement specifically to make a true double column magazine pistol still capable of fitting very small hands with the smallest backstrap and grip panel option.

 

 It would very probably also have a bbl length that is shockingly long for the overall length of the gun to achieve the very high MV's even in compact versions. Said long bbl would also get help from something along the lines of the CT ammo nose cap which would function as a pseudosabot type deal as well as making the bullet nose less pointy and likely to gall gouge or etc internals of the pistols. The ammunition would almost certainly use a newer case technology like ultrathin wall stainless or polymers. Either way utilizing coatings etc to get best powder burn efficiency at acceptable heat transfer, peak pressure, and residual pressure after bullet exits the muzzle... I'm not too concerned at all about either throat erosion or other wear characteristics because very good coatings and fairly ubiquitous automated barrel reconditioning and repair gear is about to be a very real thing... See this years NDIA presentation coverage on TFB for specifics. The barrel would also be very likely to have mild taper bore characteristics and if necessary gain twist rifling. 

 

How the f*** do you think you can justify going so fancy on the barrel? 

 

Simple, in a very real way the barrel makes or breaks this gun and will likely be a major portion of the manufacturing costs per pistol. The rest of it is pretty well tailored to be very very cheap to make, and frankly the barrels will be cheap to repair almost indefinitely once the resources are in place.

 

The slide will take several cues from the gsh-18 including being primarily "stamped" from a single piece of heavy gauge steel along with integrating a similar second set of radial bbl lugs with a "bbl bushing" having similar cutouts to gsh-18. 

 

From there there'd basically be a fuck ton of potential fitout options and degrees of complexity/ feature integration, but overall you'd end up with something smaller, lighter, cheaper, and far deadlier than current offerings.

 

 

 

I'd settle for just a 9mm M-series derivative with a threaded 4.5" barrel and a compact slide. Develop some squeezebore AP ammunition and a Littlejohn attachment, and you can get 90% of the capability of the fanciest machine pistols without deviating from NATO standard.

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10 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

 

I'd settle for just a 9mm M-series derivative with a threaded 4.5" barrel and a compact slide. Develop some squeezebore AP ammunition and a Littlejohn attachment, and you can get 90% of the capability of the fanciest machine pistols without deviating from NATO standard.

 

Yes we agree muchly on the kill the fucking hell out of all the things with squeeze bore deal... Definitely needs a giggle switch and "adjustable anti spinkick" features because... Reasons damnit!!

 

Well... Mostly because Robinson was involved with both concepts (normal pistol that beats smg's and squeeze bore that is. He seemed to be more on the salvo squeeze bore side of things, but jungle combat and post colonialism were the ubiquitous body armor intermediate barriers urban combat and green on blue / sudden jihad syndrome of today!)

 

The squeeze bore adapter deal really is a pretty decent way to cheaply and quickly transition from insurgents and gi joes hijinx to killing people with armor on and some who don't hybrid war with near peers etc. It lets you load predictable to feed and close enough to round nose fmj shaped bullets into the chamber and magically wind up with something that is actually a decent killer by the muzzle.

 

It also doesn't require idiot desk jockeyz or notoriously suspicious of new and different grunts to have uncomfortable feels in reaction to it.

 

What's not to like?

 

(I'm not bagging on soldiers btw, just the private fifth class tom's, valorious', and bring back the m14 1911 and STD's you could cure with antibiotics dickheads)

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