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The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.


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Let's all take a trip back to the late 1970s and early 1980s.  This was the time of punk.  This was the time of despair.   Punk was all about minimalism; strip everything down to a few chords, wear

So what, my 5.56 rounds are groundbreaking too if I shoot the dirt.

Stechkin's Abakan (TKB-0146). https://www.kalashnikov.ru/abakan-stechkina-avtomat-stechkina-tkb-0146/        Bullpup, system of "recoil impulse shifted in time", 2-stage

Regarding the ADVAP stuff we've discovered (open tip EPR, tungsten carbide core) this may/may not be interesting given it's mostly speculation.  A round known as the Athena/Anthena PPI which came in 7.62 and .50 caliber.   I don't think anyone has posted about this before, but if I am repeating known information my apologies.

 

powerpoint document: http://www.powershow.com/view1/1f1478-ZDc1Z/NDIA_powerpoint_ppt_presentation

 

PDFs on the rounds from small arms review: 

.50 caliber: https://www.smallarmsreview.com/archive/detail.arc.entry.cfm?arcid=12779

 

7.62mm: https://www.smallarmsreview.com/archive/detail.arc.entry.cfm?arcid=12778

 

There are images on the internet (especially on cartridgecollectors if you search for 'Anthena PPI') but since photobucket decided to fuck over the internet there are alot fewer to be found.  Like the DU APDS stuff that is sometimes floating around and there is alot less of too. 

 

Anyhow, whilst open tip AP rounds aren't a new thing PPI rounds are a more recent version I can recall and it may have some relevance to any 'improvements' ADVAP may provide (EPR construction is similar to PPI, and I'd bet the ADVAP core is heavier than in M993.)   Just my 2 cents and take it as you will. :)

 

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54 minutes ago, Belesarius said:

Heh. The Subsonic loading is moderately useful out of an AR type platform with a good suppressor on it.

 

Maybe but for most military applications you dont need subsonic ammo esp one that fits into existing magazines and guns, which end up blowing the gun up.
Suppressors are great for the military and so on but a bigger cartridge with less speed, more recoil, less penetration, less range, less mag capacity, more weight and which can easily chamber into existing system and blow them up makes me question why you would want something like that.
Maybe the SEALS will find them useful but still why do you want them? Just for clearing houses with with some poor fellas in it with no armor on? Blasting them with 2-3 5.56 rounds will do the job probably fine. But for this sole job getting a new gun in a new caliber? Colour me very sceptical.

 

The same with 6.5mm Creedmoor or whatever they want their new sniper rifles in
and that .338 Normie machine gun round.

Maybe you can try to convince me but 5.56, 7.62 and .338 Lapua/.300 Win Mag seem to do the job just fine.

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2 hours ago, Willy Brandt said:

Maybe but for most military applications you dont need subsonic ammo esp one that fits into existing magazines and guns, which end up blowing the gun up.
Suppressors are great for the military and so on but a bigger cartridge with less speed, more recoil, less penetration, less range, less mag capacity, more weight and which can easily chamber into existing system and blow them up makes me question why you would want something like that.
Maybe the SEALS will find them useful but still why do you want them? Just for clearing houses with with some poor fellas in it with no armor on? Blasting them with 2-3 5.56 rounds will do the job probably fine. But for this sole job getting a new gun in a new caliber? Colour me very sceptical.

 

The same with 6.5mm Creedmoor or whatever they want their new sniper rifles in
and that .338 Normie machine gun round.

Maybe you can try to convince me but 5.56, 7.62 and .338 Lapua/.300 Win Mag seem to do the job just fine.

Don't really disagree with you. I'm not the biggest fan of the Blackout, but I've seen some people who are fond of it as a replacement for the MP-5SD.  So covert ops folks might find it useful.  And I guess not scaring wild hogs in a semi-auto platform is useful.  And I guess I approve of it as a method of finding out who's an idiot. :P

 

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4 hours ago, Willy Brandt said:

Maybe but for most military applications you dont need subsonic ammo esp one that fits into existing magazines and guns, which end up blowing the gun up.
Suppressors are great for the military and so on but a bigger cartridge with less speed, more recoil, less penetration, less range, less mag capacity, more weight and which can easily chamber into existing system and blow them up makes me question why you would want something like that.
Maybe the SEALS will find them useful but still why do you want them? Just for clearing houses with with some poor fellas in it with no armor on? Blasting them with 2-3 5.56 rounds will do the job probably fine. But for this sole job getting a new gun in a new caliber? Colour me very sceptical.

 

The same with 6.5mm Creedmoor or whatever they want their new sniper rifles in
and that .338 Normie machine gun round.

Maybe you can try to convince me but 5.56, 7.62 and .338 Lapua/.300 Win Mag seem to do the job just fine.

 

Well, it's pretty much agreed here that .300 Blackout is universal garbage but, 6.5mm Creedmoor and 6mm Creedmoor do legitimately beat the shit out of 7.62x51mm in most applications.

 

SOCOM was looking to to sample 6.5mm CM and .260 rem to replace their 7.62x51mm chambered DMRs a bit ago but, haven't heard much about that lately so probably canned. =/

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24 minutes ago, Legiondude said:

Is this the proper thread to ask for opinions of Creedmoor vs Grendel?

 

the 6.5mm Creedmoor is a significantly more powerful cartridge but won't fit in an AR-15 length mag well, while the 6.5mm Grendel will. (this also applies to action lengths in bolt action rifles of course.)

 

The 6.5mm Creedmoor can also use longer, heavier bullets that perform better at longer ranges.

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57 minutes ago, Legiondude said:

Is this the proper thread to ask for opinions of Creedmoor vs Grendel?

 

Sure. The Grendel is really a totally different round, far less powerful and unsuited to long range shooting due to it's low relative capacity. I would say that, today, it's niches include hunting and known distance target shooting. It also would not be a terrible machine gun round, although it doesn't conform to Modern thinking about that.

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