Beer Posted May 6, 2022 Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 20 hours ago, Alzoc said: They will already be running two different types of MBT (plus the T-72s in reseve) soon enough anyway. That is already madness enough. At least with the Leopard 2 they have the German industry right at the border for logistical support if needed. With the M1 they'll have to create all the logistical support that goes with it (plus maybe have to deal with some shenanigans with imperials units...). They may be able to rely on existing US army infrastructure in Europe for a while but they'll have to create their own at some point, and that will probably cost them an arm. The biggest problem will probably be the M1's weight (especially if they are taking the latest version), a lot of their infrastructures probably can't handle it and there is also the question of whether they'll have to replace their bridging equipment (there are a lot of rivers in Poland). It's definitively a capable MBT but switching the logistics will be a nightmare and will be insanely expensive. I understand that it is mainly a political purchase to have a guarantee against Russia, but IMO they should have stuck with their Leopard 2 (maybe keep modernizing them) and replace all of their MBTs at once in the future (K2 PL or any indigenous design) to keep only one type of MBT in service. Żółć may correct me but I believe there is a plan for having joint US/Polish repair and mainteanance facility for M1 in Poland adjacent to the new US forward storage base. I don't know how much of a real advantage it is to have Germany as a supplier of the Leos just over the border. The German foreign and military policy has been fickle and the tanks are produced in Greece anyway. I agree with the weight. Same issue for our eventual purchase. Alzoc and Lord_James 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Żółć Posted May 6, 2022 Report Share Posted May 6, 2022 I wouldn't call it a plan. There are talks that the polish defence sector is cooperating with US manufacturers to create such a facility in Poland, but there is no hard proof. At this time, there are no signed arrangements, so nobody knows who will be providing maintenance and repair for our Abrams tanks. In the best-case scenario, the facility should be part of the Polish Armaments Group presumably located in Bumar (former T-family tanks factory) or WZM (Leopard maintenance facility), in the worst-case scenario, there will be no such facility in Poland or (slightly better scenario) it will be a facility owned by GDLS. So basically, the future holds the answer. Beer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted May 10, 2022 Report Share Posted May 10, 2022 Lord_James, LoooSeR and Clan_Ghost_Bear 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted May 11, 2022 Report Share Posted May 11, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted May 12, 2022 Report Share Posted May 12, 2022 Hero 120 on an LAV for the USMC. Lord_James, Clan_Ghost_Bear, LoooSeR and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 Laviduce, Ramlaen and Clan_Ghost_Bear 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan_Ghost_Bear Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 Full version of that presentation can be found on the USAHEC virtual library: https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimedia/291369/20183164MN001923.pdf Lots of neat things on there, though the search engine is not very good. Laviduce and Ramlaen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 Yes, I found that slide in the USAHEC's digital library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiedzmin Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 Laviduce, Lord_James and Ramlaen 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_James Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 @Laviduce right now LoooSeR and Laviduce 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Lord_James said: @Laviduce right now Yes, totally ! All of it ! So much juicy information ! Spoiler (Could come in handy in my soon-to-be-started M1 vulnerability study / CAD model.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiedzmin Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 58 minutes ago, Laviduce said: So much juicy information ! yeah... Laviduce and SH_MM 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted May 13, 2022 Report Share Posted May 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Wiedzmin said: yeah... Yeah, I saw those! Given what came out in recent years from multiple sources, it should not be too hard to figure out in what range these values could operate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanch90 Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 23 hours ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said: Full version of that presentation can be found on the USAHEC virtual library: https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimedia/291369/20183164MN001923.pdf Lots of neat things on there, though the search engine is not very good. The link is down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan_Ghost_Bear Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) @alanch90 Looks like their entire virtual library is down for the time being. Back up as of 2:45 EST Edited May 14, 2022 by Clan_Ghost_Bear alanch90 and Laviduce 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 On 5/2/2022 at 9:29 PM, Beer said: I don't think that it's the main criteria. My few cents how I feel it here (not saying I am right of course). There are only three viable options - Leopard 2, Abrams, K2. IMHO Merkava or Leclerc are not on the table (despite our traditionally good relationship with Israel). Out of those three we can safely say that K2 has a chance only if Czechia is not alone in EU to buy it. After the failed bid in Poland the chances are slim. Maybe if Norway selects the K2..., otherwise no chance even though K2 would be for sure a very interesting option for the military because it has some reasonable advantages for us such as three-men crew or lower weight. Leopard 2 is for sure a sensible option from technical point of view but I think that the militaty would prefer cooperation with US (and Poland) rather than Germany. Just have a look on the stuff we are using. We are neighbouring with Germany but we use basically no German weapons, none of Euro projects lead by Germany, not even anything second-hand (we have a handful of Dingo II but that's it). The reasons are IMHO purely political. The new government leans even more towards US and at least for now it also stands with Poland. Now when Poland decided for Abrams the option to share the Polish service and mainteanance base with them and Americans is for sure very attractive (despite all the technical troubles the Abrams brings for us - mainly the excessive weight). On the other hand it's also possible that some sort of weapon deal with Germany may also go through in the future as a sort of friendly gesture. We'll see. The recent development changes the situation somewhat. Germany came with an offer of some tanks for free in exchange for the tanks our MOD donated to Ukraine. Nobody wants to speak on public what exactly was offered but the general undestranding is that it's something requiring modernization, posibly Leopart 2A4. I'll post an update in more appropriate thread when details come out and when the position of Czech government towards the offer is more clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.T Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 Germany is offering Marders and Fuchses not Leopards in exchange for T72 and clones to ukraine. There are no Leopard2 to be had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jägerlein Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 12 minutes ago, mr.T said: Germany is offering Marders and Fuchses not Leopards in exchange for T72 and clones to ukraine. There are no Leopard2 to be had. Beer=Czechia German Idio--uhm I mean politicians and armchair experts proposing ring-exchanges before asking somebody who knows shit= Slovakia Dragonstriker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 44 minutes ago, mr.T said: Germany is offering Marders and Fuchses not Leopards in exchange for T72 and clones to ukraine. There are no Leopard2 to be had. No. That was offered to Slovenia, not to us. In our case it's tanks. That is officially confirmed. Dragonstriker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 33 minutes ago, Jägerlein said: Beer=Czechia German Idio--uhm I mean politicians and armchair experts proposing ring-exchanges before asking somebody who knows shit= Slovakia Slovenia, not Slovakia. Jägerlein and Dragonstriker 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jägerlein Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 1 hour ago, Beer said: Slovenia, not Slovakia. My Bad. Meant Slovenia and wrote Slovakia 'cause of Czechia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted May 16, 2022 Report Share Posted May 16, 2022 Laviduce and Clan_Ghost_Bear 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiedzmin Posted May 17, 2022 Report Share Posted May 17, 2022 ADATS, good pic of bradley spaced side skirts SH_MM, Ramlaen, Laviduce and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiedzmin Posted May 25, 2022 Report Share Posted May 25, 2022 Laviduce and Ramlaen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted June 5, 2022 Report Share Posted June 5, 2022 Serge, Clan_Ghost_Bear and Scolopax 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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