United States Military Vehicle General: Guns, G*vins, and Gas Turbines

[Ramlaen]

 

 

[Ramlaen]

BAE has a promotional article on the medical variants of the AMPV.

 

https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/article/an-emergency-room-on-tracks

[LoooSeR]

 

Spoiler

 

[ZloyKrolik]

Good timing on those photos. I'm surprised the top one is so clear, you'd think the muzzle blast would shake the camera.

[Beer]

I guess the shockwave hits the camera only after the shot is already taken. 

[LoooSeR]

   M1A2 Abrahamus and MISCLICK... or something like that.

 

Spoiler

 

[Ramlaen]

On 12/27/2019 at 2:04 PM, LoooSeR said:

   M1A2 Abrahamus and MISCLICK... or something like that.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

oh I get a looosered

[VPZ]

 

Lima

[VPZ]

 

Are they going to install both ARAT and Trophy on the same vehicles? Seems like overkill.

[ZloyKrolik]

4 hours ago, VPZ said:

Seems like overkill.

There's no kill like overkill.

[Ramlaen]

10 hours ago, VPZ said:

Are they going to install both ARAT and Trophy on the same vehicles? Seems like overkill.

 

Part of testing is qualifying how the tank behaves with the full up force protection kit.

[David Moyes]

Mobile Protected Firepower will use 105mm. Developing  "Advanced Multipurpose Round (AMP)":

 

 

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

Incredibly stupid when there's already a 120mm designed for lighter vehicles that has been built and tested.

[Ramlaen]

The photos of GD's vehicle show it having the M35 105mm that is on the M8, and the US Army has put out RFI's for 105mm multipurpose rounds.

[TokyoMorose]

3 hours ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

Incredibly stupid when there's already a 120mm designed for lighter vehicles that has been built and tested.

 

So with FCS being too sci-fi, the army is repeating the mistake of the 84-ton GCV monster now in going maximum conventional. Do they not have a setting between 'pie in the sky tech dream' and '50 year old tech'?

 

Reminds me of the fact we have both the B-2 & B-52 in service...

[VPZ]

Maybe they want to increase ammo

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

GDLS future tank from a trade show, circa early mid 90's.

And the same model in desert paint at AUSA 2009. Possible indicator of what Abrams replacement could be?

[LoooSeR]

   Another photo of that model

   This thing looks like was supposed to be unified chassis for several type of AFVs - tank, IFV, SPG and ARV.

 

 

   Speaking about US MBTs - some projects of new US MBT from 80s.

Quote

   In the mid-80s, it became clear that there was nowhere to hurry. FST-1 never appeared. Soviet tank builders took on the even more powerful FST-2 - also with an unmanned turret and a 152-mm cannon. Its appearance was expected by the mid-90s, and by this time it was necessary to have a tank superior to the FST-2. Several projects have been developed with an emphasis on increasing armor or installing powerful 135-145 mm guns. But all these projects took a long time to finalize, and it soon became clear that it was necessary to return to the idea of modernizing Abrams.

 

   Some of them:

   Variant with 145 mm gun, autoloader and low profile turret.

 

Spoiler

   145 mm gun, unmanned turret, crew of 2.

 

   Unmanned turret with 145 mm gun, crew of 3.

 

   Same, but with ATGMs.

There were other variants, but i didn't researched into this question.

[MRose]

On 12/30/2019 at 8:28 PM, TokyoMorose said:

 

So with FCS being too sci-fi, the army is repeating the mistake of the 84-ton GCV monster now in going maximum conventional. Do they not have a setting between 'pie in the sky tech dream' and '50 year old tech'?

 

Reminds me of the fact we have both the B-2 & B-52 in service...

 

FCS isn't too sci-fi today. The problem today is funding and time.

[Clan_Ghost_Bear]

1 hour ago, MRose said:

FCS isn't too sci-fi today.

I'm not so sure about that. APS is only now starting to get good and there aren't any systems (that I'm aware of at least) that can do KE reliably.

[TokyoMorose]

13 hours ago, MRose said:

FCS isn't too sci-fi today. The problem today is funding and time.

 

In general, no - but a lot of the detailed ideas still remain extremely wonky, such as purposefully forgoing armor in total reliance for active protection. Even if you build an all-conquering APS, it'll still quickly deplete its loaded bank of shots. There's also a *lot* of as-yet unworkable electronics demanded, and they even considered stuff like exoskeletons. There was also a planning undercurrent behind all of the FCS designs that high-intensity peer conflict was a thing of the past. The general concepts they were working on are indeed workable now, but without your all-conquering APS and literally magic electronics & sensors they aren't nearly as viable - FCS was only viable on paper *because* of the all-conquering APS & absolute omnipresent networking & data fusion along with nearly omnipotent sensor systems. Even the latest sensors and networks are far below what FCS was aiming for.

 

(As an aside, FCS *was* laughably pie-in-the-sky technologically in the context of when it was approved! It'd be like trying to put the current top-line smartphones with everything they have into service in the mid 2000s, sure it's not seen as a big deal now but the Army were really "optimistic" with approving that program...)

 

12 hours ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

I'm not so sure about that. APS is only now starting to get good and there aren't any systems (that I'm aware of at least) that can do KE reliably.

 

There's some tested systems I seem to remember seeing that do alright against KE (I forget the names), although none fielded that I know of. The Quick Kill system proposed for FCS was extremely wonky, never fully worked right (although has some real impressive looking test footage!), and to this day still isn't fieldable. And then you get to the issue that the QC VLS cells were in packs of 4-8, and I've only ever seen one or two packs on the FCS vehicle renders. I've also never seen anything resembling a quick reload method for the QC, and so if worst case scenario you have only 4 of them loaded and the enemy takes 5 shots at you with an old T-12 Rapira... then what? Honestly not being able to rapidly reload is a total killer for an APS outside of Low Intensity patrols, and Quick Kill's design doesn't appear to be fast to load and certainly cannot be reloaded under armor.

[Serge]

15 hours ago, MRose said:

 

FCS isn't too sci-fi today. The problem today is funding and time.

FCS is still sci-fi by 2020. 

18t platform can’t perform as a 60t one. 

[David Moyes]

BAE to Get Green Light for $10 Billion Howitzer Project:
 

Quote

“BAE has met all requirements to enter into full-rate production and we anticipate that happening” during January, Sam Tricomo, a spokesman for the weapon’s Army program office, said in an email.

The company had been assembling the weapons system since October 2013 under a series of low-rate production contracts during which it produced the vehicles late and with numerous welding defects.
 

Deliveries were halted for six months in 2017 because of welding flaws that required the return for repairs of 50 of 86 vehicles already delivered. Since then, London-based BAE has invested $200 million in improvements at its factory in York, Pennsylvania, and delivered quality vehicles consistently in the last months of 2019, according to the Army.

“To ensure no break in vehicle production” at the York facility and another in Elgin, Oklahoma, the Army last month extended low-rate production, Tricomo said. “Our confidence in BAE’s ability to deliver has increased month after month as we have seen continuous improvement in quality vehicles at increased production rates.”
 

BAE’s factory quality is a priority for the Army because it wants to increase production through 2023, not only for the howitzer system but also the other major military vehicles that BAE builds: the Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicle, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and the M88A2 tank recovery vehicle.
 

The Army plans to surge production of the Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicle for deployment to Europe as part of the U.S.’s deterrence buildup against Russia.
 

As recently as April, program officials had been privately pessimistic about BAE’s production capability in their annual Selected Acquisition Report for Pentagon officials and congressional committees marked “For Official Use Only.”
 

“At this time the Army does not have confidence when BAE will be able to deliver a quality product repeatedly,” according to the document. The “Army chief of staff does not recommend certifying the PIM program until BAE demonstrated the ability to produce quality vehicles on schedule.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/bae-to-get-green-light-for-dollar10-billion-howitzer-project/ar-BBYxHIM?ocid=st

 

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The Army Now Has Enough Upgraded Abrams Tanks To Equip An Entire Brigade:
 

Quote

The Army in late 2017 accepted the very first M-1A2C Abrams tanks. Nearly two years later the service has enough of the new vehicles to equip an entire brigade.
 

The “first brigade is critical because we need to get [them] into the soldiers’ hands so they can get trained on it and everything else,” Kennedy said.
 

A U.S. Army armored brigade typically operates around 100 tanks. The Army has 16 armored brigades as part of a total force of 58 combat brigades.
 

The M-1A2C is the latest variant of Abrams to enter production. Congress in 2019 gave the Army $1.5 billion to buy 135 M-1s from General Dynamics, extending a program that began in the 1970s.
 

The Army’s budget proposal for 2020 asks for 174 new and upgraded tanks.
 

The new M-1A2C Abrams boasts new active and passive protection that could help to protect it from the latest enemy weaponry. The most obvious new features of the M-1A2C are the vehicle's Trophy active-protection systems and an additional slab of armor on the front of its turret.
 

Trophy uses a radar to detect incoming missiles and rockets then fires tiny projectiles to intercept the munitions. The Army also is back-fitting Trophy to some older M-1 models.
 

There are a bewildering number of subvariants of the M-1A1, each boasting incremental improvements in drive-train, armor and electronics. The latest upgrade, the M-1A1SA, has a factory-fresh engine, digital electronics and a top-secret armor blend that includes a thin layer of uranium.
 

The Army plans to retire all M-1A1SAs by 2025.
 

The M-1A2 appeared in 1992. It’s pretty much a new tank, with better armor than the basic M-1A1 plus a new internal layout and fresh sensors that together allow the gunner and the commander independently to search for targets.
 

The Army has acquired around 1,500 M-1A2s and converted most of them to the System Enhancement Package Version 2 standard. The M-1A2SEPv2, which General Dynamics describes as a "digital tank," features high-end computers, a remotely-operated machine gun on the turret and a dozen batteries that allow the tank quietly to operate its sensors without turning on its engine.
 

The M-1A2C in essence is a better-protected M-1A2SEPv2 that's also easier to upgrade. In addition to Trophy and more armor, the new tank boasts more electrical power, better diagnostic systems and a data-link that's compatible with programmable ammunition types that are in development.
 

"The Abrams M-1A2C can host any mature technology the Army deems operationally relevant," the Army stated.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/army-now-has-enough-upgraded-abrams-tanks-equip-entire-brigade-109656

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BAE Raven:
 

 

 

[VPZ]

52 minutes ago, David Moyes said:

BAE to Get Green Light for $10 Billion Howitzer Project:
 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/bae-to-get-green-light-for-dollar10-billion-howitzer-project/ar-BBYxHIM?ocid=st

 

The Army Now Has Enough Upgraded Abrams Tanks To Equip An Entire Brigade:
 

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/army-now-has-enough-upgraded-abrams-tanks-equip-entire-brigade-109656

 

BAE Raven:
 

 

 

 

I haven't seen any photo with M1A2C with APS, only v2 stationed in Europe.

[MRose]

2 hours ago, Serge said:

FCS is still sci-fi by 2020. 

18t platform can’t perform as a 60t one. 

 

It isn't trying to perform exactly the same, if it was that would be stupid.

 

4 hours ago, TokyoMorose said:

 

In general, no - but a lot of the detailed ideas still remain extremely wonky, such as purposefully forgoing armor in total reliance for active protection. Even if you build an all-conquering APS, it'll still quickly deplete its loaded bank of shots. There's also a *lot* of as-yet unworkable electronics demanded, and they even considered stuff like exoskeletons. There was also a planning undercurrent behind all of the FCS designs that high-intensity peer conflict was a thing of the past. The general concepts they were working on are indeed workable now, but without your all-conquering APS and literally magic electronics & sensors they aren't nearly as viable - FCS was only viable on paper *because* of the all-conquering APS & absolute omnipresent networking & data fusion along with nearly omnipotent sensor systems. Even the latest sensors and networks are far below what FCS was aiming for.

 

(As an aside, FCS *was* laughably pie-in-the-sky technologically in the context of when it was approved! It'd be like trying to put the current top-line smartphones with everything they have into service in the mid 2000s, sure it's not seen as a big deal now but the Army were really "optimistic" with approving that program...)

 

 

There's some tested systems I seem to remember seeing that do alright against KE (I forget the names), although none fielded that I know of. The Quick Kill system proposed for FCS was extremely wonky, never fully worked right (although has some real impressive looking test footage!), and to this day still isn't fieldable. And then you get to the issue that the QC VLS cells were in packs of 4-8, and I've only ever seen one or two packs on the FCS vehicle renders. I've also never seen anything resembling a quick reload method for the QC, and so if worst case scenario you have only 4 of them loaded and the enemy takes 5 shots at you with an old T-12 Rapira... then what? Honestly not being able to rapidly reload is a total killer for an APS outside of Low Intensity patrols, and Quick Kill's design doesn't appear to be fast to load and certainly cannot be reloaded under armor.

 

The network and sensors are a lot closer to reality than they were before. In some cases, they are almost commercially available, but. Presumably, now it would be able to plug directly into the ABMS.

 

The APS would be a backup for when the superior sensors didn't identify and kill the target before it got into engagement range. Quick Kill is unworkable and completely fucked. The Trophy/Iron Fist combo APS that is supposedly in the pipeline would probably suffice. Although, it seems like that one is going to be missing for a while because Rafael and IMI had too much infighting and the Israelis didn't really have a requirement for beyond Trophy. If you have to reload the APS, presumably you would have already been mission killed at the very least.

 

What really killed the FCS was IEDs, which is completely near sighted.