Israeli AFVs

[VPZ]

13 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

In what way? And why?

 

 

Because it's automatic systems. It is said that it will choose shells and charges automatically, at least.  

 

Quote

And the entire system is a sum of more than just the cannon. 

 

Yes, and the new howitzer will differ from cannon on a truck.

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 hours ago, VPZ said:

 

Because it's automatic systems. It is said that it will choose shells and charges automatically, at least.  

 

Choosing shells and charges is a very simple matter. The heart of the system is all the components and algorithms that allow it to achieve maximum accuracy in its ballistic computations, and its ability to link up with guided munitions and integrate with new types of shells.

The system that chooses the shell type and charge, is just one of the outputs of the ballistic calculation. The data on shells' range and charges' power is set, and the FCS determines all the options that are available to it to realize the ballistic calculation. If multiple choices are available, it organizes them to achieve MRSI. 

But MRSI has already been a capability of the ATMOS for a very long time. It has basically already made all these calculations, just for manual loading.

So 90% of this auxiliary system and its algorithms, already existed in the ATMOS's computers.

 

2 hours ago, VPZ said:

 

Yes, and the new howitzer will differ from cannon on a truck.

It was only a cannon on a truck for the customers who chose this configuration. The options of manual, semi-automatic, or fully automatic loading were always available.

[Lord_James]

I thought ATMOS was the name of the truck, too. 

 

Sorry if this question is getting annoying, but ATMOS is the computer and sensors /systems attached to the computer? Could you link something that says that explicitly (again, sorry if this is annoying, I’m just trying to understand). 

[Mighty_Zuk]

33 minutes ago, Lord_James said:

I thought ATMOS was the name of the truck, too. 

 

Sorry if this question is getting annoying, but ATMOS is the computer and sensors /systems attached to the computer? Could you link something that says that explicitly (again, sorry if this is annoying, I’m just trying to understand). 

Here's the PDF from Elbit: https://elbitsystems.com/media/ATMOS-1.pdf

I'll quote the important bits:

Quote

Highly adaptable, the modular ATMOS system is compatible with any 6x6 or 8x8 high-mobility tactical truck.

So it's independent of the truck type. Not too long ago, Elbit also said the turret for the system is completely platform-agnostic, but they don't develop a platform of their own so they offer truck-based solutions to export customers.

 

Quote

Part of Elbit Systems' line of fully integrated, modular artillery solutions, ATMOS incorporates an embedded electronic suite, automatic laying system, and automatic loading system. The advanced electronic suite effectively enables accurate navigation and autonomous operation, reduced crew size, increased firepower and high precision accuracy.

 

So they describe ATMOS as the combination of an embedded electronic suite, automatic laying system, and an automatic loading system. 

[LoooSeR]

On 3/27/2019 at 3:35 PM, VPZ said:

 

Maybe Iron Vision is installed.

I'm not sure if those things are IronVision. 

Is that... a spirit of Best Korean tank design?

 

Spoiler

 

[SPARTAN ARMED]

[LoooSeR]

Spartan's second post was deleted as it was just quoting first one without anything more.

 

@SPARTAN ARMED

Your noise/info ratio is very low. Either improve or be gone.

[VPZ]

35 minutes ago, LoooSeR said:

I'm not sure if those things are IrvonVision. 

Is that... a spirit of Best Korean tank design?

 

Of course it's not.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, SPARTAN ARMED said:

We're seeing here at least 2 infantry brigades and at least one armored brigade, both active. We can expect at least 2 more reserve brigades activated for this purpose. 

There are talks of restored calm until the border riots return, but this is still the highest alert the IDF has been on the Gaza border since 2014.

[Serge]

6 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

I'm not sure if those things are IronVision. 

Is that... a spirit of Best Korean tank design?

Misfired ammo canister. 

[SPARTAN ARMED]

DEBKA crap removed.

-LoooSeR-

[Mighty_Zuk]

8 hours ago, SPARTAN ARMED said:

-DEBKA CRAP- it seem that idf didnt want to fight avi kochavi is just an office general and they just shooting to baloons and empty warehouses so no real battles for the idf units just virtual reality for now.

This is not the place for this. This is an AFV-only thread.

[LoooSeR]

Quote

Soviet advisers and Israeli M48A3, equipped with "Blazer" ERA. Syria, 1982.

[Mighty_Zuk]

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[HAKI2019]

I am a chinese fan .The APS "TROPHY" arouse our interest because American tank M1A2 use them.

There are many ATGMs developed in china. One of them seems to be designed to defeat TROPHY，some informations show  the Russian is doing the same thing.

It can launch two ATGM continuously and hit on the one point .We have no ideas whether it works.

 

[grabie]

35 minutes ago, HAKI2019 said:

I am a chinese fan .The APS "TROPHY" arouse our interest because American tank M1A2 use them.

There are many ATGMs developed in china. One of them seems to be designed to defeat TROPHY，some informations show  the Russian is doing the same thing.

It can launch two ATGM continuously and hit on the one point .We have no ideas whether it works.

 

 

 

 

This concept was introduced some years ago with dual-RPG: https://www.wired.com/2008/11/russia-unveils/

https://soldat.pro/en/2018/07/03/rpg-30-kruk-rychnoi-protivotankovyi-granatomet/

But the initial purpose was to defeat ERA.

 

Thanks for the pics!

[LoooSeR]

1 hour ago, grabie said:

 

This concept was introduced some years ago with dual-RPG: https://www.wired.com/2008/11/russia-unveils/

https://soldat.pro/en/2018/07/03/rpg-30-kruk-rychnoi-protivotankovyi-granatomet/

But the initial purpose was to defeat ERA.

 

Thanks for the pics!

It wasn't, tandem warheads are doing that.

Kornet can launch 2 missiles one by one, BTW.

[Mighty_Zuk]

2 hours ago, HAKI2019 said:

I am a chinese fan .The APS "TROPHY" arouse our interest because American tank M1A2 use them.

There are many ATGMs developed in china. One of them seems to be designed to defeat TROPHY，some informations show  the Russian is doing the same thing.

It can launch two ATGM continuously and hit on the one point .We have no ideas whether it works.

 

 

The missiles seem to be launched one by one. To ensure defeat of the Trophy, you'd have to launch them simultaneously.

 

Additionally, since the Trophy adds a slew-to-cue feature, i.e it points the gun at the launch source, you'll basically have the turret front facing the two missiles. Since Trophy, in all current known implementations, has significant overlapping coverage zones, both its launchers can be activated to defeat both missiles.

 

Last but not least, one of the arguments against the RPG-30 was that statistically, any projectile flying directly behind another projectile, is basically guaranteed to be hit by one of the EFPs of the Trophy's interceptor.

Same goes for this new demonstration with the Red Arrow ATGM.

 

1 hour ago, grabie said:

 

This concept was introduced some years ago with dual-RPG: https://www.wired.com/2008/11/russia-unveils/

https://soldat.pro/en/2018/07/03/rpg-30-kruk-rychnoi-protivotankovyi-granatomet/

But the initial purpose was to defeat ERA.

 

Thanks for the pics!

It was designed to defeat APS. At some point, because Trophy was the only APS in service at the time, and still is, someone decided to claim it's designed to defeat Trophy, to which Rafael simply replied that the RPG-30 is too primitive in its design to defeat Trophy, and features nothing that could improve its chances over a typical RPG.

[HAKI2019]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

The missiles seem to be launched one by one. To ensure defeat of the Trophy, you'd have to launch them simultaneously.

 

Additionally, since the Trophy adds a slew-to-cue feature, i.e it points the gun at the launch source, you'll basically have the turret front facing the two missiles. Since Trophy, in all current known implementations, has significant overlapping coverage zones, both its launchers can be activated to defeat both missiles.

 

Last but not least, one of the arguments against the RPG-30 was that statistically, any projectile flying directly behind another projectile, is basically guaranteed to be hit by one of the EFPs of the Trophy's interceptor.

Same goes for this new demonstration with the Red Arrow ATGM.

 

It was designed to defeat APS. At some point, because Trophy was the only APS in service at the time, and still is, someone decided to claim it's designed to defeat Trophy, to which Rafael simply replied that the RPG-30 is too primitive in its design to defeat Trophy, and features nothing that could improve its chances over a typical RPG.

I think so.Maybe it is used to destroy tanks with ERA like Indian T-90s. Some documents demonstrate type 10 also have ERA。

 

Chinese official said nothing about it，only online medias contact it with  APS. 

 

The version in pics have never adopted by PLA and the regular version also purchased in a small amount because RED ARROW 11 is regarded as the most backward in latest generation of RED ARROW

 

Another question about TROPHY is that whether it can protect tank from ATGM like FGM-148s.Many chinese believe FGM-148 is the most dangerous ATGM because it attacks the top of tank .

[grabie]

2 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

It wasn't, tandem warheads are doing that.

Kornet can launch 2 missiles one by one, BTW.

 

RPG30 uses a main RPG with a tandem warhead so yes it is.

 

 

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

It was designed to defeat APS. At some point, because Trophy was the only APS in service at the time, and still is, someone decided to claim it's designed to defeat Trophy, to which Rafael simply replied that the RPG-30 is too primitive in its design to defeat Trophy, and features nothing that could improve its chances over a typical RPG.

 

No it wasn´t, read the articles I linked.

 

This was my last contribution in the forum. Been harassed in every of my few posts with  no reason.

[LoooSeR]

30 minutes ago, grabie said:

RPG30 uses a main RPG with a tandem warhead so yes it is.

   You said that initial purpose of RPG-30 was to defeat ERA, which is not, as RPGs with tandem HEAT warheads existed before it. The whole reasons for 2 rockets fired with short time delay is to defeat APS. I didn't said that RPG-30 can't deal with ERA.

 

30 minutes ago, grabie said:

...

This was my last contribution in the forum. Been harassed in every of my few posts with  no reason.

Harassed in what way?

[VPZ]

All APS have at least two launchers. So, using two missiles against tank with APS is ineffective and maybe just a propaganda trick.

[Serge]

To deceive an APS, you must first work on the path of flight of the aggressor. 

[Mighty_Zuk]

3 hours ago, HAKI2019 said:

 

Another question about TROPHY is that whether it can protect tank from ATGM like FGM-148s.Many chinese believe FGM-148 is the most dangerous ATGM because it attacks the top of tank .

 

Yes, Trophy and other launcher based APS can defend against the Javelin, and against other top attack munitions.

Rheinmetall's ADS can also defeat top attack munitions if its modules are configured in that way, although some setups may not allow it.

 

Top attack munitions are only effective against completely static launchers. The Afganit and GL-5 are using static horizontal launchers, so they cannot defeat top attack munitions.

 

The FGM-148 Javelin can defeat both, but recently Rafael debuted the Spike LR2 with an exceptionally high angle of attack to increase chances of defeating said APS. I assume MBDA's MMP is also capable of selecting an angle of attack.

 

2 hours ago, grabie said:

 

RPG30 uses a main RPG with a tandem warhead so yes it is.

 

I think that Loser meant is that many other RPGs have a tandem warhead and what makes the RPG-30 unique is a decoy which has zero utility against ERA.

 

2 hours ago, grabie said:

No it wasn´t, read the articles I linked.

 

This was my last contribution in the forum. Been harassed in every of my few posts with  no reason.

 

Are you saying the RPG-30 was not designed to defeat APS? If so, what is the purpose of a decoy?

[Mighty_Zuk]

4 minutes ago, Serge said:

To deceive an APS, you must first work on the path of flight of the aggressor. 

A radar detects the missile/RPG at launch, or close to launch. Deceiving it to receive a wrong data on the shooter's location is difficult without stealth technologies.

Deceiving it to perceive a decoy as a real threat, requires giving the decoy the same parameters as the real one - speed, size, and shape. But when doing that, it might be easier to just put 2 live rockets and be done with it.