Militarysta Posted September 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 50 minutes ago, SH_MM said: In fact @Militarysta estimated the protection as 410 mm RHA for the turret side when hit at 30°. The frontal armor is 570 mm according to his older estimate (510 mm when hit at 30°). His later estimate is at least 450 mm, but possibly 500 to 540 mm from the front. The Leopard 2 has thicker armor than the M1 Abrams, it has heavier armor than the M1 Abrams, it is a smaller tank while weighing overall more. Still the M1 Abrams is confirmed to have 400 mm steel equivalent protection against KE (declassified US document). It is pretty much physically impossible that the Leopard 2 has less than that. My offcial statsment is this: "Całość powyższych szacunków można zawrzeć w wartościach odporności między 450 a 500 mm stali przeciw amunicji kinetycznej oraz prawdopodobnie aż do około 850 mm stali przeciw amunicji kumulacyjnej dla wersji Leoparda 2 od 2A0 do „wczesnego” 2A4" translate: All possible estimatous based on sevral facts can be put in to armour values between 450 and 500mm RHA vs APFSDS and propably up to 850mm RHA vs HEAT - for Leopard 2 version between 2A0 and erly 2A4. SH_MM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted September 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Laviduce said: The orange and blue areas vary between 360 and 320 mm RHA KE resistance. The EMES 15, gunners periscope, and EMES 15 optical channel contribute primarily to these inconsistent values. I considered the left turret cheek the most heavily armored part of the turret. The 500 mm area covers only a relatively small area on the right turret front. I do not think they would consider such a small area necessarily the "toughest part of the turret" because it covers a relatively small area of the turret front. Yyyy BS? Armour block behind EMES-15 optic is 660mm thick. It's more then T-64B, T-72M1, T-80B turret armour (for 30.degree from longitiudal axis) - so it's hard do name it as "weak spot". Place under EMES-15 optic is the same thic as right side - but whit just "space" for EMES-15. And i mesured it by myself. So rally - amrour protection for left snd right turret side is the same. Gun mantled mask is far far understimated - it 420mm thick + "weige" after it. An only mask weight 630kg(!) (without gun, coaxial MG, itp -just only shield): And when we compare this gun mantled mask dimensions and weight (ca 630kg) and known special armour features in compare to simple RHA weight then gun mantled mask have protection between 230-270mm RHA vs KE and circa up to 460-540 vs CE... + steel plate after it of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Militarysta said: Yyyy BS? Armour block behind EMES-15 optic is 660mm thick. It's more then T-64B, T-72M1, T-80B turret armour (for 30.degree from longitiudal axis) - so it's hard do name it as "weak spot". Place under EMES-15 optic is the same thic as right side - but whit just "space" for EMES-15. And i mesured it by myself. So rally - amrour protection for left snd right turret side is the same. Gun mantled mask is far far understimated - it 420mm thick + "weige" after it. An only mask weight 630kg(!) (without gun, coaxial MG, itp -just only shield): And when we compare this gun mantled mask dimensions and weight (ca 630kg) and known special armour features in compare to simple RHA weight then gun mantled mask have protection between 230-270mm RHA vs KE and circa up to 460-540 vs CE... + steel plate after it of course You are correct, in my estimates i had overestimated the size of the EMES15 channel by about 130 mm, shrinking the space that could be used by composites. So the turret front is more uniform than in my initial estimate. I will make further adjustments. Either way, even with my "low" estimates , this gives the Leopard 2A0-2A0 turret superior KE resistance compared to the M1 turret. I am strongly convinced that the KE resistance of the early Leopard 2 is between the 420-570 mm RHAe for the left turret and right turret front within the 0-30 degree frontal arc. I will prepare an updated and more detailed diagram soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 Here one can see the different thickness of the two turret cheeks: Note. The left cheek armor module (840-860 mm thickness) is nearly flush with the gun trunion. The right cheek armor module is about 200-300 mm thicker! Different view. The upper armor is part of the 640-660 mm thick armor block behind the gunner's sight. 5 hours ago, Laviduce said: Either way, even with my "low" estimates , this gives the Leopard 2A0-2A0 turret superior KE resistance compared to the M1 turret. M1 Abrams turret provides protection equal to 400 mm steel armor vs APFSDS ammunition according to declassified documents. The protection against shaped charges is 750 mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 23, 2017 Report Share Posted September 23, 2017 1 hour ago, SH_MM said: Here one can see the different thickness of the two turret cheeks: Note. The left cheek armor module (840-860 mm thickness) is nearly flush with the gun trunion. The right cheek armor module is about 200-300 mm thicker! Different view. The upper armor is part of the 640-660 mm thick armor block behind the gunner's sight. M1 Abrams turret provides protection equal to 400 mm steel armor vs APFSDS ammunition according to declassified documents. The protection against shaped charges is 750 mm. Thank you very much for the images. Is the first image a Leopard 2A4 or a Leopard 2A5/6 ? It looks like a 2A5/6 turret to me with the roof and side wall liners. I was aware of the size differenze and that the total LOS thickness of the area below the cutout for the EMES-15 is about 1000-1100 mm. I just incorrectly sized the EMES bay by about 150+ mm. I am currently working on a 3D model of the turret and i will incorporate the changes accordingly. BTW would you have any images that shows the EMES-15 channel bottom? I would greatly appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted September 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 16 hours ago, Laviduce said: BTW would you have any images that shows the EMES-15 channel bottom? I would greatly appreciate it. I show You a magic trick: 1) https://www.google.pl/ 2) tags: Leopard 2 armour EMES 15 3) WOOOHA: https://www.google.pl/search?q=Leopard+2+armour+EMES+15&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLw6a9u73WAhUmSJoKHWgoCL0Q_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=635 all what You ask! Magic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelninja333 Posted September 24, 2017 Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 Some LEO2A6FIN pics: https://imgur.com/a/HT1Fw SH_MM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted September 24, 2017 Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 17 hours ago, Laviduce said: Is the first image a Leopard 2A4 or a Leopard 2A5/6 ? Doesn't make a difference, internally the armor blocks end at the same places. The first photo shows a Polish Leopard 2A5 (ex-German). The second photo is taken from a factory, when 2A4 turrets were upgraded to the 2A5 standard. This turret upgrade in this case is pretty much finished. 17 hours ago, Laviduce said: BTW would you have any images that shows the EMES-15 channel bottom? I would greatly appreciate it. Do you mean something like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 24, 2017 Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 3 hours ago, Militarysta said: I show You a magic trick: 1) https://www.google.pl/ 2) tags: Leopard 2 armour EMES 15 3) WOOOHA: https://www.google.pl/search?q=Leopard+2+armour+EMES+15&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLw6a9u73WAhUmSJoKHWgoCL0Q_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=635 all what You ask! Magic! Amazing magic trick that i, sadly, have already tried with no luck :-/ 2 hours ago, Toimisto said: Some LEO2A6FIN pics: https://imgur.com/a/HT1Fw Thank you for the pictures, there are some things i have not seen before. :3 2 hours ago, SH_MM said: Doesn't make a difference, internally the armor blocks end at the same places. The first photo shows a Polish Leopard 2A5 (ex-German). The second photo is taken from a factory, when 2A4 turrets were upgraded to the 2A5 standard. This turret upgrade in this case is pretty much finished. Do you mean something like this? Yes, something along those lines but where the bottom of the EMES-15 bay is visible. The first image is the closest to what i am looking for. Either way , i do not think the EMES will extend much further past the bottom edge of the cylindrical optical channel as seen in the 2nd image. I wonder if the upper edge of the circular opening is touching the lower edge of that 650 mm block or if there is a noticeable gab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted September 24, 2017 Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 This is a Strv 122 (Leopard 2A5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted September 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Laviduce said: Yes, something along those lines but where the bottom of the EMES-15 bay is visible. The first image is the closest to what i am looking for. Either way , i do not think the EMES will extend much further past the bottom edge of the cylindrical optical channel as seen in the 2nd image. I wonder if the upper edge of the circular opening is touching the lower edge of that 650 mm block or if there is a noticeable gab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 24, 2017 Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Militarysta said: ... 1. Thank you guys, those STRV 122 pictures were the ones i was looking for. I would need to aks you for another favor thou. Would you guys know the actual length of the hull ammunition rack of the Leopard 2? Also , do you have any images that show if the rounds are totally enclosed in the ammo rack tubes? I would think that the entire round, KE or othertowerwise, would totally fit into the tube with only the base of the round (~5-10 mm) sticking out at the end. Since most of these 120 mm rounds are abou 980 mm in length i would assume the loaded rack not to be much longer than 1020 mm. Either way , any feedback would be appreciated. 2. What kind of LOS estimates would you guys give the leopard 2 glacis. I am getting the impression that is about 620 mm on average. 3, Do you guys have any estimates on the The Leclerc's glacis LOS thickness ? It seems to be around 500-550 mm, followed by the fuel tank of unknown thickness (100 - 200mm?), which then is followed by the ammuntion drum (around 1000 mm in length) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted September 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 1) hull ammo rack is placed at sucht angle in to longitiudal axis. And rack lenght is <1050mm 2) I had mesured it twice on two diffrent Leos-2A4 and it's 600-620mm LOS. 3) lecelrc hull is really hard to estimatous. I had truied it without measure real tank: And here is mucht better job done by guy who was sitting in Leclerc: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 24, 2017 Report Share Posted September 24, 2017 This is a compilation of properly scaled drawings that might be of interest: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted September 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 26, 2017 Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 Thank you, these pictures do help ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 26, 2017 Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 From P. Krapke: -------------------------------------------------------- Total weapon assembly Weight without mantlet: 3100 kg Weight with mantlet (Leopard 2AV): 4290 kg --------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted September 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2017 UP this element weight 640kg If you want You can assume how thick shoud be RHA place in this gun mantled mask if you assume that this element weight: a) ca 832kg (RHA vs KE as 1.3) b) ca 1280 (RHE vs CE as 2) etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 So apparently only 68 tanks will receive the newer L55A1 gun, the other ones retain the original L55 gun. https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/news/latest_news/index_14912.php Btw: Danish upgrade plans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 Some more information on the mass distribution of the Leopard 2: R. Hilmes gives the following mass distribution: Total System Weight: 55.150 kg Electronic components: 3.860,50 kg - 7 % Powerpack + full fuel tanks: 8.548,25 kg - 15,5 % Running Gear (.i.e: tracks, suspensions, wheels, etc.); 11.857,25 kg - 21,5 % Bare hull and turret with composite armor inserts: 26.472 kg - 48 % Weaponry (main gun, Coax MG, etc.): 4.412 kg - 8% (not sure whether or not this includes the gun mantlet or not.) W. Spielberger/ Oberst Icken gives the following values: Turret mass without ammunition+equipment: 16.000 kg Turmgehäuse/Turret Shell: 8.910 kg Hull mass without ammunition+equipment: 37.800 kg Panzerwanne/Hull Shell: 12.100 kg Total hull and turret shell mass: 21.010 kg Main Weapon System (120 mm RH gun) without mantlet: 3.100 kg 1. The bare hull and turret mass is stated to be around 26.472 kg with composite armor inserts. The empty turret and hull shell has a combined mass of 21.010 kg 2. This let's me believe that the composite armor in both the hull and turret has a total mass of 5.462 kg. Collimatrix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militarysta Posted October 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 10 hours ago, Laviduce said: 2. This let's me believe that the composite armor in both the hull and turret has a total mass of 5.462 kg. Turret armour weight 8,9t (including ciitadele from RHA plates) That_Baka 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Militarysta said: Turret armour weight 8,9t (including ciitadele from RHA plates) This confuses me even more. Rolf Hilmes explicitly states that the combined mass of the hull and turret chassis including special armor inserts accounts for 48 % of the entire weight of the 55t Leopard 2. This comes to about 26,5 t In the Spielberger book the combined weight of the basic hull and turret (Panzerwanne and Trumgehäuse) are given at 21 t. Would Hilmes be off by 5,5 t (20+ %) ? That_Baka 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laviduce Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Although it is a work in progress, any constructive criticism and/or feedback to enhance or correct the model would be greatly appreciated!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 Btw. when the Leopard 2A7V was developed, the German Army created a document with all desirable upgrade options and then investigated the possible upgrade paths - specifically in regards to schedule and the budget. This document already included several upgrades beyond the Leopard 2A7V, such as a harkill active protection system and automated tracking function for the optics. However by the assessment of the German military no currently available systems on the market would have the maturity/technical readiness level to become adopted now. The current proposed features of a "Leopard 2Ax" (future upgrade after 2A7V, so essentially 2A8 or if adopted in several parts an even higher number) include: 1,200 kW engine active hardkill protection system all round vision thanks to additional digital optics automated tracking feature for the (main?) optics improved ammunition a remote weapon station Essentially the Leopard 2 is meant to become equivalent to Rheinmetall's Leopard 2 ADT, but with a more powerful engine and made by KMW as main contractor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty_Zuk Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 No automated tracking up until now? I'm surprised to be honest. Either way, it's good they're going for an HMD solution in parallel to APS. Is there a schedule for when a follow-up variant is set to be developed, either officially or through a pattern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.