The Leopard 2 Thread

[Wiedzmin]

addition to previous page, 1st part of firing trials

 

 

Geschwindigkeitsmessungen

Bestimmung der V2 durch Extraploation.

 

Schussentfernungen

 

115 m fuer Typ D und E

2 kal. abstand fuer Typ A,B und C

 

A - 5’’  brl precision shaped charge 

B - 4,2’’  brl precision shaped charge 

C - 3,2’’ brl precision shaped charge 

D - 105mm APFSDS xm579e4 at striking velocity of 4858 ft/sec 

E - apc-m.(br412d mod) at striking velocity 3150 ft/sec

^^^ US requirements, what was penetration for all SC at 2 cal. stand-off i don't know, i only have british 127mm S4 charge, which give 580-590 at 250-300mm stand-off.

 

 

Deutmaterial

1. 1’’ dicke PSt-Bleche (MIL-S-13812-B) mit Brinellhaerte 340 kp/mm2

2. ¼’’ dicke PSt-Bleche (nur bei Versuch 20)

Deutbleche wurden nicht bei allen Versuchen verwendet.

2. Einzelprotokolle 12.10.76

 

Beschussprotokoll

Schuss Nr.1 Vers. Nr.1

Ziel : Linke Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 40

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 1080mm von vorn(Schweissnaht)

        360mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = LBoR(Leicht Beule ohne Riss?)

 

Schuss Nr.2 Vers. Nr.2

Ziel : Linke Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 40

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 1110mm von vorn(Schweissnaht)

        600mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum glD(glatter Durchschuss) 15mm 

Durch die HL-Druckwelle wurde die Abdeckplatte uber dem tank in der kettenabdeckung eingedruckt 

 

13.10.76

 

Schuss Nr.3 Vers. Nr.3

Ziel : Linke Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: B 4,2’’ 106mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 175 mm von vorn(Schweissnaht)

        470 mm von unten 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum= OM

 

Schuss Nr.4 Vers. Nr.4

Ziel : Linke Turm-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 80 mm von unten

        365 mm von links  

Ergebnis: Kampfraum= OM

 

14.10.76

 

Schuss Nr.5 Vers. Nr.5

Ziel : Turm Links, Trennstelle Front/Seite (Profil und Schweissnaht)

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 150 mm von unten

      0 mm von links  

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD 18mm

Deutplatte glD 20mm

Deutplatee BoR(Beule ohne Riss?) (10mm tief)

Die Kettenabdeckung wurde(trotz Abdeckung mit einer 25mm dicken Platte) eingedtuckt, der Tank wurde beschadigt.

15.10.76

Schuss Nr.6 Vers. Nr.6

Ziel : Rohrblende, Frontseite

Flankwinkel: 0

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 120 mm von rechts

        135 mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD 25mm

Splitterwirkung auf der Kampfraum-Ruckwand; maximale Eindringtiefe der Splitter ca=5mm, Wirkungskreis der Splitterwirkung ca. 500x500mm.

Es wurde kein Deutmaterial verwendet 

 

Schuss Nr.7 Vers. Nr.9

Ziel : Rechte Wannenseite (Kettenschutze)

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  3. Kettenschurze

        375mm von vorn

        300mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

Merkmale Wannenseitenblech aussen: 110mm lang/10mm tief

 

18.10.76

Schuss Nr.8 Vers. Nr.10

Ziel : Rechte Wannenseite (Kettenschutze)

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  3. Kettenschurze

        400 mm von vorn

        60mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = BoR 2(nicht sichtbar)

Merkmale Wannenseitenblech aussen: 110mm lang/21mm tief

Schuss Nr.9 Vers. Nr.8

Ziel : Kettenabdeckung, vorn rechts(Bereich Nische Fahrerluke)

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   45mm vorn unten

        180 mm von Niche Fahrerluke(vorderes Blech)

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

 

Schuss Nr.10 Vers. Nr.7

Ziel : Rechte Turm-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel: 45

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   230 mm vorn Schildzapfenwand

        75 mm von unten

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

 

19.10.76

Schuss Nr.11 Vers. Nr.11

Ziel : Rechte Turm-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   550 mm vorn Schildzapfenwand

        315 mm von unten

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

 

Schuss Nr.12 Vers. Nr.12

Ziel : Rechte Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   555 mm vorn Schildzapfenwand

        515 mm von unten

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

Schweissnaht zum Turm-Dachblech 900mm lang gerissen Senkrechte Schweissnaht (links von Treffer) 760mm lang gerissen 

 

21.10.76

Schuss Nr.13 Vers. Nr.13

Ziel : Zieleintichtung des Richtschutzen

Flankwinkel: 0

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  Jm Linken Drittel des Gehauses 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD

Nur leichte Markierungen am Turm-Ruckwand. Die Schildzapfenwand wurde gegen dier Rohrblende gepresst (Rohrblende bleibt jedoch beweglich) Rissbildung siehe Skizze

 

Anm(Aum?). Die Schutzklappen waren beim schuss geiffnet.

Bei Zerlegung des Panzers beobachten: War Schuss 13 durch Schuss 12 vorbelastet ?

 

Schuss Nr.14 Vers. Nr.14

Ziel : Linke Wannenseite(3.Kettenschurze)

Zielpunkt wurde von 1. auf 3. Schurze verlegt, weil sonst Kette im Strahlbereich

Flankwinkel: 20

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  3. Kettenshurze 

  320mm von vorn

250mm von oben

(Distanz zwischen Aufschlag und Durchslag = 2350mm)

Ergebnis: Triebwerksraum = glD 25mm

Sekundarwirkung

Linkes Tankgehause durchschlagen

12mm tief in Ruckwand(Triebwerksraum) eingedrungen

Schurze weitgehend zerstort, je 3 Schrauben der Schurzenhalter abgerissen

 

Anm(Aum?): Der Schuss wurde nicht gewertet, weil der Kampfraum nicht getroffen wurde

 

22.10.76

 

Schuss Nr.15 Vers. Nr.14R (Weiderholung)

Ziel : Linke Wannenseite(1.Kettenschurze) nicht nicht verschraubt

 

Flankwinkel: 20

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  1. Kettenshurze 

  150mm von vorn

265mm von oben

 

Ergebnis: Triebwerksraum = OM

Die Schurze wurde weitgehend zerstort. Der HL-Strahl durchdrang die Stützrolle und wurde zerstort (auf der Aussenseite des wannen seiten bleches wurden nur Kleine spritzer festgestellt)

 

Schuss Nr.16 Vers. Nr.15

Ziel : Mittlere Wannen-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel:0

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 

    350mm von rechts

125mm von oben

 

Ergebnis: Triebwerksraum = OM

(Keine ausseren Beschadigungen) 

[/spoler]

 

p.s weird evaluation criteria "we accept /we don't accept it" 

 

 

[2805662]

4 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Beschussprotokoll

Schuss Nr.1 Vers. Nr.1

Ziel : Linke Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 40

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 1080mm von vorn(Schweissnaht)

        360mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = LBoR(Leicht Beule ohne Riss?)

 

Schuss Nr.2 Vers. Nr.2

Ziel : Linke Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 40

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 1110mm von vorn(Schweissnaht)

        600mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum glD(glatter Durchschuss) 15mm 

Durch die HL-Druckwelle wurde die Abdeckplatte uber dem tank in der kettenabdeckung eingedruckt 

 

13.10.76

 

Schuss Nr.3 Vers. Nr.3

Ziel : Linke Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: B 4,2’’ 106mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 175 mm von vorn(Schweissnaht)

        470 mm von unten 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum= OM

 

Schuss Nr.4 Vers. Nr.4

Ziel : Linke Turm-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 80 mm von unten

        365 mm von links  

Ergebnis: Kampfraum= OM

 

14.10.76

 

Schuss Nr.5 Vers. Nr.5

Ziel : Turm Links, Trennstelle Front/Seite (Profil und Schweissnaht)

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 150 mm von unten

      0 mm von links  

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD 18mm

Deutplatte glD 20mm

Deutplatee BoR(Beule ohne Riss?) (10mm tief)

Die Kettenabdeckung wurde(trotz Abdeckung mit einer 25mm dicken Platte) eingedtuckt, der Tank wurde beschadigt.

15.10.76

Schuss Nr.6 Vers. Nr.6

Ziel : Rohrblende, Frontseite

Flankwinkel: 0

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 120 mm von rechts

        135 mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD 25mm

Splitterwirkung auf der Kampfraum-Ruckwand; maximale Eindringtiefe der Splitter ca=5mm, Wirkungskreis der Splitterwirkung ca. 500x500mm.

Es wurde kein Deutmaterial verwendet 

 

Schuss Nr.7 Vers. Nr.9

Ziel : Rechte Wannenseite (Kettenschutze)

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  3. Kettenschurze

        375mm von vorn

        300mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

Merkmale Wannenseitenblech aussen: 110mm lang/10mm tief

 

18.10.76

Schuss Nr.8 Vers. Nr.10

Ziel : Rechte Wannenseite (Kettenschutze)

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  3. Kettenschurze

        400 mm von vorn

        60mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = BoR 2(nicht sichtbar)

Merkmale Wannenseitenblech aussen: 110mm lang/21mm tief

Schuss Nr.9 Vers. Nr.8

Ziel : Kettenabdeckung, vorn rechts(Bereich Nische Fahrerluke)

Flankwinkel: 30

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   45mm vorn unten

        180 mm von Niche Fahrerluke(vorderes Blech)

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

 

Schuss Nr.10 Vers. Nr.7

Ziel : Rechte Turm-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel: 45

Munition: C 3,2’’ 81mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   230 mm vorn Schildzapfenwand

        75 mm von unten

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

 

19.10.76

Schuss Nr.11 Vers. Nr.11

Ziel : Rechte Turm-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   550 mm vorn Schildzapfenwand

        315 mm von unten

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

 

Schuss Nr.12 Vers. Nr.12

Ziel : Rechte Turmseite

Flankwinkel: 25

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:   555 mm vorn Schildzapfenwand

        515 mm von unten

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

Schweissnaht zum Turm-Dachblech 900mm lang gerissen Senkrechte Schweissnaht (links von Treffer) 760mm lang gerissen 

 

21.10.76

Schuss Nr.13 Vers. Nr.13

Ziel : Zieleintichtung des Richtschutzen

Flankwinkel: 0

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  Jm Linken Drittel des Gehauses 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD

Nur leichte Markierungen am Turm-Ruckwand. Die Schildzapfenwand wurde gegen dier Rohrblende gepresst (Rohrblende bleibt jedoch beweglich) Rissbildung siehe Skizze

 

Anm(Aum?). Die Schutzklappen waren beim schuss geiffnet.

Bei Zerlegung des Panzers beobachten: War Schuss 13 durch Schuss 12 vorbelastet ?

 

Schuss Nr.14 Vers. Nr.14

Ziel : Linke Wannenseite(3.Kettenschurze)

Zielpunkt wurde von 1. auf 3. Schurze verlegt, weil sonst Kette im Strahlbereich

Flankwinkel: 20

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  3. Kettenshurze 

  320mm von vorn

250mm von oben

(Distanz zwischen Aufschlag und Durchslag = 2350mm)

Ergebnis: Triebwerksraum = glD 25mm

Sekundarwirkung

Linkes Tankgehause durchschlagen

12mm tief in Ruckwand(Triebwerksraum) eingedrungen

Schurze weitgehend zerstort, je 3 Schrauben der Schurzenhalter abgerissen

 

Anm(Aum?): Der Schuss wurde nicht gewertet, weil der Kampfraum nicht getroffen wurde

 

22.10.76

 

Schuss Nr.15 Vers. Nr.14R (Weiderholung)

Ziel : Linke Wannenseite(1.Kettenschurze) nicht nicht verschraubt

 

Flankwinkel: 20

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage:  1. Kettenshurze 

  150mm von vorn

265mm von oben

 

Ergebnis: Triebwerksraum = OM

Die Schurze wurde weitgehend zerstort. Der HL-Strahl durchdrang die Stützrolle und wurde zerstort (auf der Aussenseite des wannen seiten bleches wurden nur Kleine spritzer festgestellt)

 

Schuss Nr.16 Vers. Nr.15

Ziel : Mittlere Wannen-Vorderseite

Flankwinkel:0

Munition: A 5’’ 127mm HEAT

Trefferlage: 

    350mm von rechts

125mm von oben

 

Ergebnis: Triebwerksraum = OM

(Keine ausseren Beschadigungen) 

[/spoler]

 

p.s weird evaluation criteria "we accept /we don't accept it" 

 

 

 

Likely refers to “claimed compliance/performance” and “demonstrated compliance/performance” where demonstrated means either objective quality evidence is provided, or the compliance/performance is measured as required. 

[Fernando Wilson L.]

On 7/22/2019 at 10:55 AM, SH_MM said:

 

The Leopard 2AV has full turret protection over a 50° arc, just like the Abrams according to British documents. The Leopard 2/3 has protection over a 60° arc. The series production Leopard 2 also has full turret protection over a 60° arc according to the Swedish leaks (or KMW was at least providing protection values for the 1979 model Leopard 2 from -30° to +30° from the turret centerline).

 

 

Rolf Hilmes wrote that the base turrets of Leopard 2 tanks upgraded to the 2A5 configuration were modified with "D" technology armor. There was a German armor package capable to resist the 120 mm LKE1 (DM43) APFSDS without wedges offered as upgrade option to Leopard 2A4 users during the 1990s. There is more evidence that base armor in "D" technology was created than otherwise.

 

 

Based on the following image, the "Type D" armor is refering to the follow-up armor package to the "Type C" armor tested in 1987:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

Type B: 350 mm vs KE along the frontal arc,

Type C: 410-420 mm vs KE along the frontal arc,

Type D: not revealed, still in development at the time

 

 

Btw. the report on the 1977 meeting regarding weight of the Leopard 2AV mentions a weight of 735 kg for the proposed heavy ballistic side skirts (Kampfschürzen) of the Leopard 2AV. This seems a bit too much for the Leopard 2 series skirts based on my knowledge. Did one of the 2AV versions you've seen look like this (from a German patent):

 

 

Hi, would you be so kind as to tell me to which publication corresponds the "page 35" that you attach? it has very interesting info regarding the British MBT selection program

[SH_MM]

On 8/11/2019 at 1:53 PM, Wiedzmin said:

The completion of this bow section will be completed in mid-December 1976, so that at the beginning of January 1977, the transport to Meppen can be arranged. We ask for scheduling the shelling attempts from January 1977

 

Given that it was known in February 1977 how much weight could be saved by replacing the fuel tanks with "continous spaced armor", it is possible that this array did not incorporate a fuel tank anymore. The Leopard 2AV was trialed in Fall of 1976 by the United States.

 

1 minute ago, Fernando Wilson L. said:

Hi, would you be so kind as to tell me to wich publication corresponds the "page 35" that yuo attach? it has very interesting info regarding the British MBT selection program

 

Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank - 1998 to present: Owner's Manual by Dick Taylor (ISBN: 9781785211904).

[Wiedzmin]

2 hours ago, SH_MM said:

Given that it was known in February 1977 how much weight could be saved by replacing the fuel tanks with "continous spaced armor", it is possible that this array did not incorporate a fuel tank anymore. The Leopard 2AV was trialed in Fall of 1976 by the United States.

btw one more question

 

Schuss Nr.30 Vers. Nr.30

Ziel : Linke Turm- Vorderseite

Flankwinkel: 25 

Munition: E 100mm AP

Vz: 3128 ft/sec 953 m/s

Trefferlage:  Schuss ging 140mm zu weit nach links (immittelbar neben die Schweissnaht)

                      40 mm von links (schweissnaht)

                       200mm von unten

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM

 

Gerissene Schweissnahte:

Senkrechte Schweissnaht: von oben bis unten aufgerissen (max. 140mm breit)

Schweissnaht zum Turmdach: 570mm nach vorn

Schweissnaht zum Turmdach: 1580mm nach hinten

Schweissnaht zum Turmdrehkranz: vollkommen gerissen

 

Turmdrehring gebrochen

Turm lasst sich nur gewaltsam drehen

 

doest this mean that 100mm AP destroyed turret ring ? but turret can be turned with force or something like that ? 

 

 

and one more, turret front armour packs for 2AV - "Jalousiepanzerung", turret site - "Mehrfachschott" 

[Laviduce]

------

[SH_MM]

10 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

doest this mean that 100mm AP destroyed turret ring ? but turret can be turned with force or something like that ? 

 

Yes, sort of. The 100 mm AP round broke the welding seam, which then jammed the turret ring. The turret still could be turned, but only using (external) force.

[Scav]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

You are speculating, the Swedish leaks say nothing like that. They say that the German model - such as the model that Germany wants to buy - has Type B base armor. That they analysed the TVM (rather than relying on armor modules and informations supplied by Krauss-Maffei) or that the German model would be equal to the TVM is never stated there. 

Why would they analyse an armour package and do tests on it when that's not the armour package that is in the tank they are doing the other trials with?
They were sent the TVM for the trials, it makes little sense for them to test another armour package and not the TVM's, changes in module size and weight could affect mobility trials or even vision and other such things.

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

Given that the "German model" in the Swedish leaks has better hull armor than the Leopard 2A4 with Type C armor, what does this tell us about the turret armor...

"German model" being TVM (or KVT?) it has the add-on modules and thus shouldn't come as a surprise that it has better protection on both the hull and the turret.

Not quite sure what you mean to point out with this?

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

That is because these are prototypes. The Swedish leaks show the side armor of the wedges to be identical between the German model (which you claim to be the TVM, which had flat sides during the Swedish trials) and the Swedish model. Both have the flat sides based on the thickness visible in the top-view. The sloped wedges were first added to the TVM 2 mod., developed between 1991 and 1992. The main focus of the TVM 2 mod. was weight and cost reduction in order to stay within the weight limit agreed upon by the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland during a conference in Mannheim (hence it was called the Mannheimer Konfiguration). This didn't improve protection, but downgraded protection (by e.g. removing the hull and turret roof add-on armor modules), i.e. it doesn't make sense to speculate that the turret add-on armor was improved over the original TVM 2 configuration with flat-sided wedges.

Those schematics are not detailed enough nor the same as those of the M1A2 where you can see the module being mounted (and not even that well), there being no difference doesn't mean much as they are not trying to represent the protection on the schematic itself, but merely using it as a way to indicate the location of the hits, like in that UK doc.

Spoiler

I think you'll agree that this is hardly an exact representation of the armour layout of a leopard 2A4.

 

It actually makes more sense to use slightly better modules than to change the base armour (with a very effective and probably expensive package as you have pointed out), as this would save costs and not add to them.

The wedges being flat would inevitably lead to different protection to the later bulged ones as the angle of impact would be different.

Fact is, we don't know what the "Swedish wedges" look like, but we do know that they were made in cooperation with IBD, the guys who made the first ones too.

Besides, how else can you explain the difference in protection?

10mm between the German model on the turret side and the Swedish model is too insignificant to be due to internal armour changes, same for the rest of the turret.

 

Only on the hull is there an 80mm difference for the glacis, which is too little of a difference for a change from B to C (~300mm to ~425mm) and even more so if we assume this "D" package was used instead of B....

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

Prototypes of the Leopard 2A5 were completed at the time, but the decision to eliminate the Leopard 2 from the competition was already made years earlier. We know from declassified UK documents (aka government reports) that "Leopard 2 won British trials" is a lie.

And where are these reports?
Why else did the leopard 2A5 proto participate in the trials?

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

The add-on armor at the turret and hull doesn't have different thickness. If you read R. Lindström's presentation and the old version of his website (via web archive), you'll notice that he never stated that the add-on armor of the Leopard 2 was replaced/improved. He only stated that all tanks were tested with armor developed by Åkers Krutbruk and IBD Deisenroth. A short look at the old website of Åkers Krutbruk (via web archive) reveals that they acquired the MEXAS licence from IBD Deisenroth.

 

The term "swedish armor" by itself doesn't mean "they replaced the add-on armor with identical looking one, which somehow happens to be better despite having the exact same dimensions and weight" nor does it mean that the actual armor was developed by Sweden, given that Åkers had the licence for MEXAS. It can also mean that this was the armor chosen for Sweden.

The changes are too small to be because they changed the internal armour from something like B to C.

And I never said the armour had to look identical, I think they actually tested modules similar to those on the actual 2A5 instead.

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

That said, Hilmes suggest that the main changes in survivability between the Leopard 2A5 of Germany and the Stridsvagn 122 is the hull, i.e. among other facts that it features spall liners, supposedly some titanium elements for weight saving and the hull and roof add-on armor modules. According to a Danish tanker (Denmark choose the Leopard 2A5DK based on the Swedish trials, after they were given access to the test data), the side armor of the hull is different between the Leopard 2A5 and Stridsvagn 122.

That doesn't surprise me, there's the one slide that shows all the armour fitted to the Strv 122 compared to a normal 2A4 in yellow, it shows the side hull spaced elements being filled or changed.

Even the skirts were different between the 2A5 (some of which used the older C tech skirts) and the Strv 122 (which probably exclusively used the newer D tech skirts).

This amounted to an 80mm+ difference at 15-17.5°.

 

Strv 122 is actually quite likely to use C in both the hull and turret, as they were making brand new tanks anyway.

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

Unlike claimed by you, LKE1/DM43/OFL-1/KEW-A1 was designed with optimizations against special armors and ERA. That's why the round is still in use today and even has been ordered just this year by Taiwan for their future M1A2 tanks. That it performs better against Kontakt-5 than M829A1 is no wonder, because it has a thicker rod (26 mm) and is made of tungsten, which has a higher stiffness than DU, i.e. it is less likely to be deformed/shattered by heavy ERA.

Couple of issues with this:

1. Entire projectile only weighs 4kg according to GD
2. 26x600mm penetrator would have incredibly low density to achieve the 4kg total weight
3. Some sources claim it was derived from DM33 and just upscaled or lengthened
4. Germany didn't think it was sufficient and dropped it in favour of DM53
5. Kotsch (a fairly decent source) states it isn't 26mm, which is most definitely correct based on pictures

Let's assume the penetrator weight alone is 3.6kg (fairly normal weight for the fin assembly etc), volume of the rod is 318.56cc, this means the density of the rod would need to be just 11.3(!)g/cc to achieve a rod weight of 3.6kg.....

This is WAY too low and thus unrealistic.

 

Based on pictures such as these:

Spoiler

We can deduce it is most definitely thinner than DM33, based on the known length and thickness of DM13 we can get a decent guesstimate at DM43's thickness, which is around 24mm on the non-threaded frontal part.

This would still mean a very, very low density, thus that is probably not the actual thickness but the jacket thickness.

Based on the weight, Kotsch's figures (admittedly quite a few of them are wrong, but DM43's are quite close to pictures), and similar rounds from this time period, it's likely that the actual rod thickness is around 20 or 21mm, with a jacket extending that to 24mm total.

This would not only make it more effective against composites than a monobloc round, but would keep the density of the core at a reasonable level.

Assuming the core actually weighs 3.4kg with the remaining 600g in the fins and jacket, that would give us a density of 18g/cc, totally reasonable and actually a density suggested in German patents before.

While the jacket would definitely help with structural strength of the rod while penetrating (even against K-5), I think they were instead trying to minimise the sectional density to prevent the K-5 from activating in the first place, add to this the increased velocity, and it might just be sufficient for K-5, though I personally doubt it was very effective.

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

- Even if the Leopard 2 from 1991 still was fitted with Type C armor, this doesn't change the fact that there could have been Type D/fourth generation base armor as mentioned by Hilmes. It remains a fact that a flat, box-shaped armor module was able to resist LKE1/DM43 without the penetrator reaching the last ~quarter of the armor array and that this was offered as upgrade option to several countries operating older versions of the Leopard 2 (which is why I know about this: the relevant documents were classified at a relatively low level because said countries didn't buy the armor upgrade, so informations could be leaked even by lower levels of the respective armies) Maybe this armor was never fitted to the Leopard 2A4 as base armor - this doesn't change the fact that the Leopard 2A5/Stridsvagn likely has such base armor, based on its weight.

It's entirely possible that they are referring to C tech, I strongly doubt it "only" had 425mm on the front of the turret as claimed by the brits, because it simply does not match the protection figures provided by the Swedish trials, nor does it make sense that the "improved" armour package didn't increase the frontal turret armour beyond B levels by any decent amount.

Looking at that proposed armour from B&V (is it actually fitted or not? @Militarysta kinda seemed to say that it was, but then you said it wasn't?....) the LOS thickness of the steel alone is more than enough to reach 425mm of protection in the frontal 60° arc of the front (again, excluding the side armour, it's obviously the weakest part of the turret).

 

So if they did end up increasing the frontal protection substantially (Swedish leaks indicate this), then it might just be C tech that stopped DM43.

Almost 20% of the frontal surface was equivalent to 550mm of RHA protection, it isn't a stretch to think the ballistic test was conducted to simulate a 2000m range, at which point the penetration of DM43 from the L44 would've been below 600mm at the vertical, possibly being defeated by an array equivalent to 550mm.

 

If there was a "D" tech main armour, I would seriously question how they managed to achieve substantially higher protection, with a LOS efficiency of around 0.85, compared to C tech, which came just three years prior....

That's not to mention the supposed increase in CE protection....

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

Sure, every author makes mistakes. But you are just speculating on him exactly making a difference at this place. Your examples for his previous mistakes are also bad. You are using his original book from 1984 and argue that it is wrong without even having a proof that the sections your criticize contain any errors.

TOW is commonly known to be an error, HOT was indicated earlier, Milan same thing and the T-72 protection is also wrong as most sources say 300+ (350 for the 60-100-50 model).

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

Maybe he made an error when drawing the sketch due to an incorrect understanding of the translation, but that is completely irrelevant to the discussion, as you are using a book from the 1980s citing tons of sources to discredit his statements about a program where he was actually involved in...

He wasn't even being clear on what he meant, internal turret armour or add-on or both?
And he did make the 2A3 mistake which he should've had correct regardless, he's human and can make mistakes like the rest of them.

 

On 8/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, SH_MM said:

A contemporary special of a German military magazine on the Leopard 2A5 written by Michael Scheibert, a Bundeswehr officier who served 73 years before retiring and wrote numerous articles on German military hardware, tactics and other military related topics wrote in regards to the armor: "Einbau von Schutzpaketen neuer Technologie im Turmgehäuse und Anbau von Vorsatzmodulen an der Front und an den Flanken des Turmes;" (Integration of protection modules [made with] new technology into the turret structure and addition of external add-on modules at the front and flanks of the turret). He furthermore mentions that despite using the newest (!) armor technology, the weight of the Leopard 2A5 had to be increased to nearly 60 metric tons to meet the demanded protection levels. Newest armor technology doesn't sound like Type B armor from 1979...

And did he have access to this kind of info?

Does he mention which generation or type of armour for both?
He could again be referring to C for the internal armour and D for the external armour.
Does he have any book on 2A4s etc?

 

So, one book says they changed internals, one magazine says the same and mentions third generation armour (C tech), then R.H makes a vague statement of turrets being modified with D tech.

Then there's 3 or 4 books that don't mention the internal armour being changed.

 

 

 

Edit:

Spoiler

That's a very complex armour configuration....
And did they use Gummi bears  as spacers?

[Scav]

Spoiler

Did a quick calculation as to the steel LOS in the array, it's almost 400mm....?
FYI, the 15mm comes from the U-shaped blocks in the front, from the horizontal, it seems as if a projectile would hit one and clip another before exiting that part of the array, hence 15mm without the 2.6mm sheet metal plate at the back.

 

It's a rather impressive amount of steel, 393mm without even taking into account the effects of spacing etc, the 15° angled UFP is 81mm thick in steel or about 313mm LOS, then the glacis plate is ~323mm LOS.

 

All of this would be substantially better against KE than the XM-1s.

 

[SH_MM]

Some food for thought:

Spoiler

http://data4.primeportal.net/tanks/alberto_rubio_gamarro/leopard_2e_spanish/images/leopard_2e_spanish_169_of_192.jpg

 

[SH_MM]

 

[Fernando Wilson L.]

On 8/12/2019 at 12:11 PM, SH_MM said:

 

Given that it was known in February 1977 how much weight could be saved by replacing the fuel tanks with "continous spaced armor", it is possible that this array did not incorporate a fuel tank anymore. The Leopard 2AV was trialed in Fall of 1976 by the United States.

 

 

Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank - 1998 to present: Owner's Manual by Dick Taylor (ISBN: 9781785211904).

Thanks a Million!!  :-)

[Wiedzmin]

last part of firing trials, maybe someone could make good translation for 1st and last pats.

 

23.10.76 

Schuss Nr.17 Vers. Nr.16 
Ziel : Mittlere Wannen-Vorderseite
Flankwinkel:0
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS
Vz: 1476 m/s
Trefferlage: 
590 mm von rechts
280 mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM Oberhalb des Treffers 700 mm langer Riss in der Schweissnaht zum oberen Bugblech 

27.10.76 

Schuss Nr.18 Vers. Nr.17
Ziel : Mittlere Wannen-Vorderseite
Flankwinkel:0 
Munition: A 5'' 127mm HEAT
Trefferlage: 
795 mm von rechts
140 mm von oben

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM Schweissnaht zum oberen Bugblech um 50mm weiter gerissen

28.10.1976

Schuss Nr.19 Vers. Nr.18
Ziel : Obere Wannen-Vorderseite
Flankwinkel:0
Munition: A 5'' 127mm HEAT
Trefferlage: 
300 mm von links
450 mm von Bugspitze

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM Unterhalb des Treffers 800mm langer Riss in der Schweissnaht zum mittleren Bugblech. Mittleres Bugblech: senkrecher Riss 170mm lang

Schuss Nr.20 Vers. Nr.37
Ziel : Wannen-Vorderseite ( Neigungswinkel 8°) Flankwinkel:0
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS
Vz: 1451 m/s
Trefferlage:
80mm vor dem 8 Blech augesetzt (bei ca.15°) 1230 mm von Bugspitze 840 mm von links (Schweissnaht) 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum glD 45x65mm Rohrblende von unten her eingedruckt, Schweissnaht aufgerissen. Rohrblende lasst sich nur im unteren Schwenkbereich bewengen. Der Turm lasst sich noch drehen. Splitter beschadigen Mun.-Halterung im Kampfraum Anm(Aum?) Treffer war als Versuch 19 vorgesehen. Der Schuss ging zu hoch und wird als Versuch 37 geweitet 

Schuss Nr.21 Vers. Nr.19( Wiederholung)
Ziel : Obere Wannen-Vorderseite
Flankwinkel:0 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS
Vz: 1460 m/s
Trefferlage: 
480mm von Bugspitze
545mm von Links(Schweissnaht)

Ergebnis: Kampfraum-OM 


29.10.76 

Schuss Nr.23 Vers. Nr.22
Ziel : Linke Turmseite
Flankwinkel: 25
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS
Vz: 1455 m/s
Trefferlage: 
390 mm von unten
200mm von vorn

Ergebnis: Kampfraum-OM 

Schuss Nr.24 Vers. Nr.23 
Ziel : Linke Turm-Vorderseite 
Flankwinkel:25 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS 
Vz: 1467 m/s 
Trefferlage: 
510mm von unten
445mm von links 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum-OM Dachblech 15mm angehoben 

30.10.76 

Schuss Nr.25 Vers. Nr.24 
Ziel : Linke Turm-Vorderseite 
Flankwinkel:25 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS 
Vz: 1453 m/s 
Trefferlage: 
320mm von unten 
320mm von links 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum-OM 

Schuss Nr.26 Vers. Nr.25 
Ziel : Linke Wannenseite(Kettenschurze) Flankwinkel:20 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS
Vz: 1468 m/s 
Trefferlage: Ubergang 1. +2. Kampfschurze 145mm von oben 560mm von vorn 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum-BoR Auf der Aussenseite des Wannenseitenbleches 25mm tief eingedrungen

2.11.76 

Schuss Nr.27 Vers. Nr.27 
Ziel : Rechte obere Turm-Vorderseite Flankwinkel:25 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS 
Vz: 1457 m/s 
Trefferlage: 
50mm von oben 
285mm von rechts 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum-OM Vordere Schweissnaht am Turmdach 340mm lang gerissen. Dachblech ca.18mm angehoben 

Schuss Nr.28 Vers. Nr.28 
Ziel : Rechte untere Turm-Vorderseite Flankwinkel:25
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS 
Vz: 1470 m/s 
Trefferlage: Schuss ging 160mm zu weit nach rechts (unmittelbar neben Schweissnaht) 110 mm von unten 50mm von rechts 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum-OM Gerissene Schweissnahte: Senkrechte Naht zwischen Vorder-und Seitenwand Komplett auf der ganzen lange. Turmseitenblech Unterkante 850mm lang. Sekundarwirkung: 1) Dummy hat sich von der Halterung gelost 2) Verschraubing des Richtshurzen-Zielgerates abgerissen 3) Turm lasst sich nur schwer bewegen.

3.11.76

Schuss Nr.29 Vers. Nr.29 
Ziel : Turmdach
Flankwinkel:0
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS
Vz: 1443m/s 
Trefferlage: Schuss ging 40 mm zu tief oberes blech der Rohrblende destreift (85mm rechts von Mitte Turm) 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum-OM Anm. Der Schuss soll wiederholt werden 

4.11.76

Schuss Nr.30 Vers. Nr.30 
Ziel : Linke Turm- Vorderseite 
Flankwinkel: 25 
Munition: E 100mm AP 
Vz: 3128 ft/sec 953 m/s 
Trefferlage: Schuss ging 140mm zu weit nach links (immittelbar neben die Schweissnaht) 40 mm von links (schweissnaht) 200mm von unten 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM Gerissene Schweissnahte: Senkrechte Schweissnaht: von oben bis unten aufgerissen (max. 140mm breit) Schweissnaht zum Turmdach: 570mm nach vorn Schweissnaht zum Turmdach: 1580mm nach hinten Schweissnaht zum Turmdrehkranz: vollkommen gerissen Turmdrehring gebrochen Turm lasst sich nur gewaltsam drehen 

Schuss Nr.31 Vers. Nr.31 
Ziel : Linke Wannenseite (Kettenschurze) Flankwinkel: 20
Munition: E 100mm AP 
Vz: 3128 ft/sec 958 m/s 
Trefferlage: 1. Kettenschurze 550mm von vorn 250mm von oben Mass von Vorderkante 1. Stutzrollenbock bis Vorderkante Einschuss im Wannenseitenblech: 1600mm 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = D, 100x260mm (Mater.-Ausbruch 85x220mm) Geschoss nicht im Kampfraum eingedrungen,(Abrutscher) Beide Schurzen zerstort. Stutzrolle wurde destreift und beschadigt. Schweissnaht oberhalb des Treffers 1400 mm lang gerissen. Bemerkung: Der Zielanfbau war nicht real, es fehlte die 2. Stutzrolle und das normalerweise hinter der 2.Stutzrolle angeschraubte Kettenglied Schuss 

Nr.32 Vers. Nr.32
Ziel : Mittlere Wannen-Vorderseite
Flankwinkel: 0
Munition: E 100mm AP
Vz: 3128 ft/sec 952 m/s
Trefferlage: 480mm von links 250mm von Bugspitze 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM Riss in Schweissnaht oberes und mittleres Bugblech erweitert Riss unterhalb des Treffers 430mm lang 

5.11.76 

Schuss Nr.33 Vers. Nr.34
Ziel : Kettenleitrad(linke Seite) 
Flankwinkel: 45 Munition: С 3.2'' 81mm HEAT Trefferlage: 150mm von Aussenkante Kette 190mm von Unterseite Kettenabdeckung 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM (5mm in Wannenseitenwand eingedrungen) 

Schuss Nr.34 Vers. Nr.35
Ziel : Kettenleitrad(linke Seite)
Flankwinkel: 20 
Munition: A 5'' 127mm HEAT 
Trefferlage: 100mm von Aussenkante Kette 220mm von Unterseite Kettenabdeckung 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = dlD 15mm (Wannenseite) 25 Durchschlage in Trennwand z.Motorraum 5mm in Heckwand eingedrungen. 

Schuss Nr.34 Vers. Nr.35
Ziel : Kettenleitrad(linke Seite)
Flankwinkel: 20 
Munition: A 5'' 127mm HEAT 
Trefferlage: 100mm von Aussenkante Kette 220mm von Unterseite Kettenabdeckung 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = dlD 15mm (Wannenseite) 25 Durchschlage in Trennwand z.Motorraum 5mm in Heckwand eingedrungen. 

16.11.76 
Schuss Nr.35 Vers. Nr.29R (Wiederholung)
Ziel : Turmdach 
Flankwinkel: 0 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS 
Vz : 1455 m/s Trefferlage: Seht gut getroffen, 100mm hinter der Schweissnaht angesetzt(190mm hinter dem Absatz) 150mm links von der Mitte 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM «Abrutscher» 250mm lang 35mm breit 6mm tief 

Schuss Nr.36 Vers. Nr.20 
Ziel : Untere Wannenvorderseite (ohne Tank) Flankwinkel: 0 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS 
Vz : 1469 m/s 
Trefferlage: 60mm von unten +-0 von der Mitte
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD 90mm 1.Deutblech 6,5mm : D 170x190mm 2.Deuntblech 6,5mm: D 130x270mm Holzplatte 1,0'': D 200x300mm Schottwand Triebwerk: D 170x300mm + Spl.-D Heck-Entluft.Klappe rechts: D 30x35mm 1. Drehstab: Leichte Beschadigung durch Splitter 2. Drehstab: Isolierung abgeplatzt 3. Drehstab: Starke Beschadigung durch Splitter max. 3-4mm Schiebetur zum Munitionsbunker lag auf dem Heck. 

17.11.76 

Schuss Nr.37 Vers. Nr.36
Ziel : Kettenleitrad (linke seite) 
Flankwinkel: 20 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS Vz : 1452 m/s Trefferlage: 160mm von Aussenkante Kette 365mm von Unterseite Kettenabdeckung (zwischen dem kettenpolstern) 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM 1) Umlenkrollen lager oberhalb der Mitte durchschossen ( Umlenkrolle zerbrocher) 2) Stutzrollen bock in Nahe der Wannenseitenwand beidseitig durchschlagen. Geschoss abgelenkt, keine Beruhrung mir der Wannen-Seitenwadn 

Schuss Nr.38 Vers. Nr.38 
Ziel : Schildzapfenwand 
Flankwinkel: 25 
Munition: D 105mm APFSDS 
Vz : 1475 m/s 
Trefferlage: Zwischen Richtschurzen Zielgerat und Schildzapfenwand 520mm von vorn 100mm von oben( bezogen auf Schildzapfenwand) 

Ergebnis: Kampfraum = glD 100x120mm Keine wesentliche Splitterwirkund im kampfraum ( Der Rest der Geschosses ging durch die offnung der nicht meht vorhandenen Munition Bunkertur)

18.11.76 

Schuss Nr.39 Vers. Nr.6R 
Ziel : Rohrblende 
Flankwinkel: 0 
Munition: B 4,2'' 106mm 
Trefferlage180mm von der Mitte 75mm von unten Ergebnis: Kampfraum = OM 

Schuss Nr.40 Vers. Nr.39 
Ziel : Rechte Turmseite 
Flankwinkel: 25 
Munition: E 100mm AP Vz: 952 m/s 
Trefferlage: 270mm von unten 290mm von vorn (Schweissnaht) (angesetzt bei 10mm) 
Ergebnis: Kampfraum nur die Senkrechte Schweissnaht 350mm lang gerissen ( Ecknaht zwischen Turmseitenwand und Turmvorderwand)

[David Moyes]

[SH_MM]

Re: Leopard 2AV

 

#	projectile	angle	target	result
1 / 1	81 mm HEAT	40°	left turret side	no penetration, light bulge
2 / 2	81 mm HEAT	40°	left turret side	penetration, cover of sponson fuel tank pushed in by shockwave
3 / 3	106 mm HEAT	30°	left turret side	no penetration
4 /4	127 mm HEAT	25°	turret front, left side	no penetration
5 / 5	127 mm HEAT	25°	left turret edge, between front and side faces	penetration, track cover pushed in despite 25 mm cover plate, sponson fuel tank damaged
6 / 6	127 mm HEAT	0°	gun mantlet, front side	penetration
7 / 9	81 mm HEAT	30°	right hull side, track skirts	no penetration, 10 mm deep and 110 mm long mark on the exterior of hull side wall
8 / 10	81 mm HEAT	30°	right hull side, track skirts	no penetration, bulge, 21 mm deep and 110 mm long mark on the exterior hull side
9 / 8	81 mm HEAT	30°	track cover, close to the driver's hatch	no penetration
10 / 7	81 mm HEAT	45°	turret front, right side	no penetration
11 / 11	127 mm HEAT	30°	turret front, right side	no penetration
12 / 12	127 mm HEAT	25°	right turret side	no penetration, weld along the turret roof broken along 1.66 meters length
13 / 13	127 mm HEAT	0°	gunner's sight	penetration, only minor marks visible in the interior
14 / 14	127 mm HEAT	20°	third track skirt element	penetration, only slight mark of damage in the interior; trunnion side wall pressed against gun mantlet, but movement of gun mantlet is not hindered
15 / 14R	127 mm HEAT	20°	first track skirt element	no penetration, skirt element mostly destroyed, support roller penetrated; only minor marks on the exterior side wall
16 / 15	127 mm HEAT	0°	central hull front	no penetration
17 / 16	D 105 mm APFSDS	0°	central hull front	no penetration
18 / 17	127 mm HEAT	0°	central hull front	no penetration
19 / 18	127 mm HEAT	0°	upper front plate	no penetration
20 / 37	D 105 mm APFSDS	0°	upper front plate, section sloped at 8°	penetration, also damaged the gun mantlet (limited gun elevation only)
21 / 19	D 105 mm APFSDS	0°	upper front plate	no penetration of crew compartment
23 / 22	D 105 mm APFSDS	25°	left turret side	no penetration of crew compartment
24 / 23	D 105 mm APFSDS	25°	turret front, left side	no penetration of crew compartment, turret roof bulged outwards by 15 mm
25 / 24	D 105 mm APFSDS	25°	turret front, left side	no penetration of crew compartment
26 / 25	D 105 mm APFSDS	20°	left hull side, track skirts	no penetration, bulge, 25 mm deep mark in the exterior side
27 / 27	D 105 mm APFSDS	25°	turret front, right side	no penetration of crew compartment, turret roof bulged outwards by 18 mm
28 / 28	D 105 mm APFSDS	25°	turret front, lower right side	no penetration, weld broken between turret front and side faces, dummy thrown out of its harness, gunner's sight screws knocked loose, turret can only hardly be turned
29 / 29	D 105 mm APFSDS	0°	turret roof	no penetration
30 / 30	100 mm AP	30°	left turret edge, between front and side faces	no penetration, broken weld to the turret ring; turret can only be turned using force
31 / 31	100 mm AP	20°	left hull side, track skirts	shot bounced off, no penetration of crew compartment, material broken off from the inner wall (spall), two skirt elements destroyed, support roller damaged
32 / 32	100 mm AP	10°	central hull front	no penetration
33 / 34	81 mm HEAT	45°	front wheel, left side	no penetration, 5 mm deep mark in hull side
34 / 35	127 mm HEAT	20°	front wheel, left side	penetration
35 / 29R	D 105 mm APFSDS	0°	turret roof	no penetration, round bounced off, 250 mm long, 35 mm wide and 6 mm deep mark
36 / 20	D 105 mm APFSDS	0°	lower front plate	penetration, first torsion bar damaged slightly, isolation of second torsion bar damaged, third torsion bar damaged heavily
37 / 36	D 105 mm APFSDS	20°	front wheel, left side	no penetration, projectile did not touch hull side wall, but instead damaged the bearing of the front wheel, bounced off and penetrated two support rollers
38 / 38	D 105 mm APFSDS	25°	trunnion wall	penetration, nearly no traces of damages on the inside (projectile fragments exited turret through the ammunition compartment, where the door was blasted off during earlier tests)
39 / 6R	106 mm HEAT	0°	gun mantlet	no penetration
40 / 39	100 mm AP	25°	right turret side, close to the weld between front and side faces	no penetration, only partial crack of the external weld between right turret front and right turret side

 

There is a lot more info regarding the damage to the weld lines and the size of the holes caused by the hits.

[skylancer-3441]

photo of pic from Wehrtechnik 1988-03 p.30

Spoiler

[Wiedzmin]

12 hours ago, SH_MM said:

Re: Leopard 2AV

 

 

There is a lot more info regarding the damage to the weld lines and the size of the holes caused by the hits.

thank you. there was shot with 100mm at hull side, i didn't undertand what hapend after hull side chunk ripped off(100x230mm), 100x230 is size of hole and "Mater.-Ausbruch 85x220mm" size of chunk ?

[SH_MM]

8 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

there was shot with 100mm at hull side, i didn't undertand what hapend after hull side chunk ripped off(100x230mm), 100x230 is size of hole and "Mater.-Ausbruch 85x220mm" size of chunk ?

 

You mean shot number 31 ("Schuss Nr. 31"), test number 31 ("Vers. Nr. 31"). I am not exactly sure what happened there, the description isn't very detailed. The result is lists "Kampfraum = D" (crew compartment = Durchschuss aka penetration). However the following sentence says ""Geschoss nicht im Kampfraum eingedrungen (Abrutscher)", which translates to "projectile did not enter the crew compartment (bouncer)". This is why I listed it in the table above as "no penetration of the crew compartment" IMO this implies that the Materialausbruch (the material breaking off the steel plate) is some sort of spall or a plug, i.e. it is one of the two cases at the bottom of the left column in the following image:

 

 

The first two dimensional figure (100 x 260 mm) could be the damage, i.e. what is marked with "x" on the right side of the page above. The smaller figure (85 x 220 mm) would then be the projectile hole/plug hole, marked with "y" on the right side of the page above. None of these figures would represent the thickness of the damaged armor/length of the plug, only the width and height of the damage/opening

 

[Scav]

On 8/16/2019 at 8:02 PM, SH_MM said:

Some food for thought:

I always thought this was to prevent rounds from striking up at the cupola or roof add-on package when installed (which "raises" the cupolas right?).

Bit like the ribbed armour on BMP-1 glacis.

 

Rather interesting as this would indicate they had the tank ready for the upgrade or thought it was necessary (UK found a similar necessity for the Chieftain's persicope GPS after the Iran-Iraq conflict).

Also, is it just me, or does the leo 2 have thinner armour around the driver's hatch than on the rest of the glacis?

 

Thanks for the translation BTW, wasn't sure on some points.

 

Spoiler

Lol..... @David Moyes do you have a link to this post?

[SH_MM]

16 hours ago, Scav said:

I always thought this was to prevent rounds from striking up at the cupola or roof add-on package when installed (which "raises" the cupolas right?).

 

As far as I know this is not meant to protect the cupola (not to mention, that the Leopard 2 doesn't have any cupola's extending over the roof). The raised roof of the Stridsvagn 122, Leopardo 2E, Leopard 2A6 HEL, Leopard 2A7Q, etc. has also nothing to do with it - the additional space is taken up by the armor.

 

Here is the hatch of a Leopard 2A6 HEL:

 

Fixing the armor module with bolts.

 

Inserting the armor module using a crane.

 

My theory about the visible plates is that they are related to the installation of new armor modules. In case of the Leopard 2AV with the "too complicated armor", the armor consisted of three armor modules (self-contained hollow steel boxes), which were welded together and then covered by a roof plate. For some reason (probably trying to reduce the costs), the Leopard 2A5/2A6 didn't receive a single plate covering the modules on the left turret front. The new steel plates on top of the Leopard 2A5 turret perfectly cover the armor module.

Note that at the right side of the photograph, the cut extends further than the new cover plates. As if the remaining part of the old roof was bend to allow installing a new armor module more easily or to better connect side armor and front armor modules, before being bend back in place.

 

 

The turret side armor of the Leopard 2 is inserted from below (based on stories about the reverse-engineering experience from our friendly neighbours), the changes to the gunner's sight require a major redesign of the area (including new roof/cover plates for the armor), which means that installing new armor modules doesn't leave a trace. The frontal armor on the left side however requires the roof to be cut open.

[David Moyes]

@Scav

https://www.facebook.com/ed.francis.524/posts/10156528526392467

 

[Wiedzmin]

 

whole point of MEXAS addon on Leo1 is to completely avoid penetration of RPG-7, or just minimize residual penetration effects after armour penetration(in case of UFP armour it's unlikely  to protect from anything) ?

 

 

[heretic88]

1 hour ago, Wiedzmin said:

whole point of MEXAS addon on Leo1 is to completely avoid penetration of RPG-7, or just minimize residual penetration effects after armour penetration(in case of UFP armour it's unlikely  to protect from anything) ?

Problem with Leopard-1 is that base armor is so ridiculously thin that it just isnt possible to upgrade the protection to sufficient levels. There is no steel behind the add-on armor. Turret and hull sides may be upgraded to be immune to PG-7V, PG-7VM, resistant to PG-7VS, but hardly more. The PG-7VL is already too much I think, and it is still a very old munition (1977).

Whole tank is suitable only for situations where it can exploit its great mobility, really its only defense is speed.

[Scav]

21 hours ago, SH_MM said:

As far as I know this is not meant to protect the cupola (not to mention, that the Leopard 2 doesn't have any cupola's extending over the roof). The raised roof of the Stridsvagn 122, Leopardo 2E, Leopard 2A6 HEL, Leopard 2A7Q, etc. has also nothing to do with it - the additional space is taken up by the armor.

The cupolas (hatches really) could still be damaged, and in the case of leopard 2E etc, a round that penetrates this roof module could jam the hatch, a stepped plate like this prevents this from happening.

Not saying it's the main reason, but it could explain why it's only present infront of the hatch.

 

22 hours ago, SH_MM said:

My theory about the visible plates is that they are related to the installation of new armor modules. In case of the Leopard 2AV with the "too complicated armor", the armor consisted of three armor modules (self-contained hollow steel boxes), which were welded together and then covered by a roof plate. For some reason (probably trying to reduce the costs), the Leopard 2A5/2A6 didn't receive a single plate covering the modules on the left turret front. The new steel plates on top of the Leopard 2A5 turret perfectly cover the armor module.

Note that at the right side of the photograph, the cut extends further than the new cover plates. As if the remaining part of the old roof was bend to allow installing a new armor module more easily or to better connect side armor and front armor modules, before being bend back in place.

I don't see how having the armour bulge out on the roof would be cost saving, while having all the other armour not do this.
Unless only this part of the armour was changed, I don't see why it would be done.

 

The cut seems to indicate the opposite to me, that the cavity is still the same and that these three plates were welded on later.

 

On the original leopard 2 the roof over the cavity was flush, so unless they made the armour packages slightly bigger/taller (I don't see why this would be done just for this section), I would expect the same for the packages on the 2A5.

 

21 hours ago, David Moyes said:

@Scav

https://www.facebook.com/ed.francis.524/posts/10156528526392467

 

Thanks!
I don't have FB, so please do post any docs or pictures he posts regarding this topic, it'd be quite interesting to see.

 

3 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

whole point of MEXAS addon on Leo1 is to completely avoid penetration of RPG-7, or just minimize residual penetration effects after armour penetration(in case of UFP armour it's unlikely  to protect from anything) ?

Note quite the same package (MEXAS-M I think?) but the 1A6BE was originally supposed to bring the leopard 1A5s up to a level sufficient to be used against RPG-7 equipped insurgents:

Spoiler

More pictures here:http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/robert_de_craecker/leopard_1a5_abl/index.php?Page=3

 

I doubt it can stop more than early RPG-7s on the hull though, perhaps more on the turret.

Regarding the base armour, it's hardly worse than what the leopard 2 uses for it's steel shell, the composite cavities are what gives that tank it's protection too....
Add enough of these packages to the outside of a leo 1 and I reckon you can get to similar protection levels.

 

[SH_MM]

1 hour ago, Scav said:

The cupolas (hatches really) could still be damaged, and in the case of leopard 2E etc, a round that penetrates this roof module could jam the hatch, a stepped plate like this prevents this from happening.

 

A "stepped plate" won't change anything, while being rather weight-inefficient and covering pretty much no arc (the side armor and the mantllet lack "stepped plates").

 

1 hour ago, Scav said:

The cut seems to indicate the opposite to me, that the cavity is still the same and that these three plates were welded on later.

 

If you believe the stepped plates were added for protecting the cupola of the loader (even though that doesn't make sense) how do you draw conclusions about the underlying base armor?

 

The frontal armor of the Leopard 2 overlaps the turret ring, so it has to be accessed from the top. The side armor (as discovered by noisy Leopard 2 users trying to improve their own tank industry) can be replaced from the bottom. The mantlet armor was replaced and most definetly the armor at the EMES-15's gunner's sight (which required major redesign, so no "stepped plates").

 

5 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

whole point of MEXAS addon on Leo1 is to completely avoid penetration of RPG-7, or just minimize residual penetration effects after armour penetration(in case of UFP armour it's unlikely  to protect from anything) ?

 

AFAIK there is a further layer (of ceramics?) added ontop of the UFP, as shown here.

 

According to a Canadian solider, a Leopard C2 surived a hit by an unspecified RPG on the gun mantlet in Afghanistan (or rather a "volley"). This photo is supposed to show the result:

 

3 hours ago, heretic88 said:

Problem with Leopard-1 is that base armor is so ridiculously thin that it just isnt possible to upgrade the protection to sufficient levels. There is no steel behind the add-on armor. Turret and hull sides may be upgraded to be immune to PG-7V, PG-7VM, resistant to PG-7VS, but hardly more. The PG-7VL is already too much I think, and it is still a very old munition (1977).

Whole tank is suitable only for situations where it can exploit its great mobility, really its only defense is speed.

 

Leopard 1A6 prototype were meant to survive ATGM and 125 mm APFSDS at 1,500 m distance. That's a protection level above the original M1 Abrams (although on a reduced frontal arc)!