The Leopard 2 Thread

Pardus · March 5, 2020

21 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

Sorry for this rigorous statement!

Well to be fair he hasn't really been holding back on the rigorous statements himself has he?

Beer · March 5, 2020

3 hours ago, Pardus said:

4) Slat armour is supposed to break up HEAT warheads, so yes ofcourse it should also work against some ATGMs, it depends entirely on warhead type and hit location. Against a top attack only ATGM system side mounted slat armour obviously doesn't really matter.

I don't comment on armour because my knowledge is too limited but this statement is incorrect. Maybe the prehistoric Malyutka is an exception but against most of the ATGMs the slat armor is rather useless because it can't cut the fuze in them unlike with the old RPG/LAW warheads. Even against those it's far from being 100% effective in not initializing the warhead.

Unfortunately I can't find the video now but I remember that there was one on youtube where they test fired now already dated and pretty light RPG-26 on a slat-armoured APC and the slat armour failed to achieve anything. The warhead detonated and penetrated the vehicle completely in and out. Maybe someone who can write in cyrilic may find it.

LoooSeR · March 5, 2020

3 hours ago, Beer said:

Unfortunately I can't find the video now but I remember that there was one on youtube where they test fired now already dated and pretty light RPG-26 on a slat-armoured APC and the slat armour failed to achieve anything. The warhead detonated and penetrated the vehicle completely in and out. Maybe someone who can write in cyrilic may find it.

RPG-26 have inertial fuze that actives when rocket stops (or drops speed too fast). Slat armor is nearly useless in that case. Original video is deleted.

DIADES · March 6, 2020

16 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

more than 70 years old

careful with ageist slights. A twenty year old engineer working on Leopard 2 in 1970 would be 70 years old now. Leopard 2 and Abrams etc are bloody old = the guys that designed them are bloody old and or dead...

Gun Ready · March 6, 2020

You are right, the guys being engineers with Leopard 2 first development at DEG (Deutsche Entwicklungsgesellschaft) are too old to type in forums or are even dead. But some guys which worked with the development of the improved Leopard 2 A5 armour are old (more than 60) but still agile in some protection areas.

March 6, 2020

1

Gun Ready · March 6, 2020

13 minutes ago, Willy Brandt said:

On the case who SH_MM is:
I dont think a 70 year old german defence industry retiree would be in this forum.
And if he was he would be posting in a german forum too.

I think he is a student at a university for defence technology or works for one of the bigger companies but is pretty new.
The young guy at bigger Company is pretty plausible because he keeps his online profile very low.

I think this here is one of, if not the only forum he posts on after his sadly deserted blog.

Maybe you are right but at some time he will betray himself...

Rico · March 6, 2020

university for defence technology

lol... as if such thing would exist in Germany...

March 6, 2020

1

Pardus · March 7, 2020

Something I just came to think of, the drivers hatch on the 2A5 onwards looks a lot thicker than the 30mm of the 2A4's:

walk-around-detailbilder-leopard-2a5-wal

50-60mm maybe?

Rike1985 · March 8, 2020

What was the model of driver thermal camera that was in the original Leo 2A7+ released in 2010? Before Spectus?

Scav · March 23, 2020

On 3/7/2020 at 4:07 PM, Pardus said:

Something I just came to think of, the drivers hatch on the 2A5 onwards looks a lot thicker than the 30mm of the 2A4's:

Spoiler

50-60mm maybe?

No need to guess:

Spoiler

Quite easily 64mm, though I'm not sure the entire hatch is that thick considering there's optics on it and they have to lead down somewhere, so maybe there's a cutout that allows you to push up the other end (haven't bothered to get inside pictures, so purely speculation).

Pardus · March 25, 2020

It is very thick indeed, ~65mm as you can see, and the add on armour on the UFP is 45mm, which if I'm not mistaken is also the thickness of the base armour here (45mm), atleast that's what it was on the 2AV.

Wiedzmin · March 27, 2020

Helenic 2A6

Wiedzmin · March 30, 2020

1975-76 Leopard 2AV trials, hull front penetrated by 127mm HEAT charge, and 107mm HEAT charge, details will upload bit later...

Wiedzmin · March 31, 2020

so, my bad again, 81 no used against hull, 127 and 107

127mm-600-636mm pen

107mm-480mm pen

as far as i understand, because of this hull front failure they later made this hull

and only after this version get to 2A0/4 style hull, but i don't know is 2A0/4 a capable of stoping 127mm warhead or not...

and there is a scheme of firings of 2AV in US, without any good details, only that tank have 39 hits, of which 16 germans consider to be "good", of which 3 actually was penetration in turret front and mantlet by 127mm warhead, remaining 23 hits, they didn't mention...

penetration was hit 6, 5 and 13, which version of hull front was used in US trials i don't know

p.s scheme of US trials seem to match trials i previosly posted here, so it's seems that they used improved hul, or germans repeat all hits that they recieved during US trials later at home with improved hull front

Pardus · April 10, 2020

"MV 2200 m/s" ??

(2:28 min)

Pardus · April 10, 2020

Recieved a notification from METKA to remove pictures of Leopard 2 manufacturing pictures for OPSEC reasons, just a heads up.

Jägerlein · April 14, 2020

On 4/10/2020 at 9:23 AM, Pardus said:

"MV 2200 m/s" ??

(2:28 min)

You see the 5 Stripes on his shoulders? This translates into "willing workdrone with limited consciousness"

Rike1985 · April 20, 2020

Does anyone have confirmed info that is there new flat screen(s ) (thermal image display) for commander in the latest Leo 2A7V? There is some picture on the internet from the commander station of the first Leo 2A7 variant where there is old CRT still there? Some new display on the right, but thermal imager screen is still old CRT? And some BMS display between that thermal imager screen and some new display?

Edit also same question concerning driver CRT display

Rico · April 21, 2020

11 hours ago, Rike1985 said:

Does anyone have confirmed info that is there new flat screen(s ) (thermal image display) for commander in the latest Leo 2A7V? There is some picture on the internet from the commander station of the first Leo 2A7 variant where there is old CRT still there? Some new display on the right, but thermal imager screen is still old CRT? And some BMS display between that thermal imager screen and some new display?

Edit also same question concerning driver CRT display

German Leo2A7 are part of the DLBO (Digital Landbased Operations). For that the vehicles will get new displays (to show the BMS) I assume that it will be this display (but this project is still in progress so the first 2A7 might not have it yet):

https://www.atm-computer.de/19758-ZG9tPWRvbTEmbD1lbiZzdGFydD0x-/products/VistaMaster.html

Further the Leo2A7 has the Spectus thermal imager in front and rear

https://www.hensoldt.net/products/optronics/spectus-drivers-sight-system/

This requires a new display as well.

SH_MM · April 29, 2020

The Leopard 1A3's fire control system and optics were derived from the contemporary Leopard 2 development; in particular the EMES 12 steoroscopic rangefinder, the PERI R12 commander's sight and the FLER-H are based on early Leopard 2 components.

But on the Leopard 2 prototypes the EMES 12 was not just an optical rangefinder. Paul-Werner Krapke in his book essentially calls it an optical rangefinder with integrated laser rangefinder, which leaves tonnes of room for imagination. The Jahrbuch der Wehrtechnik from 1974 explains some details regarding this arrangement. Basically the laser rangefinder used the same lenses as the optical rangefinder, but was reflected at a semi-translucent mirror, while visible light could pass it. As the Bundeswehr considered laser rangefinders to be too inaccurate during the early 1970s (apparently they often picked up incorrect or multiple laser echos), the gunner had the task to double-check the laser rangefinder's measurements. For this purpose the result of the laser rangefinding was displayed in the gunner's eyepieces, so that he could quickly set the optical rangefinder to that range - if the measurement was correct, then the target would appear correctly ranged (sharp) in the optical rangefinder aswell.

For the Leopard 1A3 the laser rangefinder was removed - probably as cost-saving measure.

I wonder what this means regarding the reliability of the Tank Laser Sight adopted on the Chieftain already in 1970...

On a side note, the FERO Z12 auxiliary sight on the early Leopard 2 prototypes also included a night vision option (of unknown quality - IR or image intensifier?) - the later FERO Z18 of the Leopard 2 and corresponding devices found on other modern tanks like the Abrams and Challenger 2 only work as daysights.

But the really interesting aspect of the early Leopard 2 prototypes are the night vision devices. Basically two different designs were tested: the PZNG and NZG 200.

The PZNG (this probably stands for "passives Ziel- und Nachtsichtgerät" - passive targeting and night vision device) was made by AEG. It consists of a fully-stabilized periscope incorporating a low light level television system with a 200 mm lens opening and basically the same second-generation image intensifier as used in the PZB 200 LLTV camera. The whole PZNG had a weight of circa 70 kilograms and was mounted on a retractable mast at the back of the turret. Full 360° traverse and elevation ranging from -10° to +20° allowed detection targets at all directions.

PZNG with captions pointing towards the LLTV camera lens ("TV-KANAL"), thermal imager lens ("WB-KANAL"), as well as drives for elevation and azimuth

A special feature of the PZNG was the so-called Wärmebildortung or Wärmebildpeilung (basically: thermal image detection/scanning). Thermal imagers at the early 1970s didn't offer sufficient resolution and contrast to be used as night vision devices in armored vehicles; yet they clearly offered a massive advantage in terms of detection capability. So AEG decided to add a thermal imaging system to the PZNG to be purely used for target detection, which projected the image onto the photocathode of the camera tube. Essentially by activating the Wärmebildortung the thermal imager produced images at a very slow rate (just one frame per minute, probably in order to reduce the required cooling system). These were laid over the image provided by the LLLTV system, essentially acting as a very early type of sensor fusion. Compared to thermal rangefinders, LLLTV systems at the time provided clearer images and longer ranges (up to 3,000 meters according to the optimistic values from the Jahrbuch der Wehrtechnik 1974). The modular design of the PZNG allowed to completely replace it with a newer thermal imager in the future.

The NZG 200 was developed by Zeiss and Eltro. I believe that NZG might stand for "Nachtsichtzielgerät" - night vision targeting device. In terms of overall specs, it is largely similar to the PZNG - a 70 kg heavy, fully stabilized periscope with 360° travese and -10° to +20° elevation that sits on an elevatable mast which can be retracted into the turret. The main difference between both systems is the image intensifier - another type of video camera tube was used - and the íntegration of the still early thermal imaging technology. Instead of a small thermal sensor with a low framerate being used, the NZG 200 included a proper thermal imager. A mirror in the "dead" zone of the LLLTV's mirror lens directed the incoming light to it. As the resolution was still rather limited, the thermal imager also was to be only used for target detection - identification of the target aswell as aiming was to be done using the image intensifier instead.

The NZG 200 didn't allow overlying the thermal imager's output onto the LLLTV image, instead the operator had to switch between switch between both modes. Alternatively one operator (gunner or commander) could view the thermal channel, while the other could view the LLLTV channel. The NZG 200 was designed in such a way, that the thermal imaging module could be easily replaced with newer ones in the future.

The PZNG was fitted to the Leopard 2 prototype turrets T12 and T17, while the NZG 200 was fitted to the turrets T11 and T16.

Leopard 2 prototype with turret T11 (the only one with 20 mm autocannon). The NZG 200 is visible at the center-left side of the photo. Next to it is the pulse spotlight, which could be used with the LLLTV system in the oimnous "gated viewing mode".