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The Leopard 2 Thread


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On 5/22/2020 at 11:53 PM, Scav said:

The section at the bottom seems to have been dropped and I'm not sure which 2AV mantlet this is....

 

Shouldn't matter. The prototypes were built with weight simulators, not the actual armor packages. The different shape of the mantlet is related to the different guns mounted on the tank.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 1:44 PM, Yoshi_E said:

@SH_MM Source to that? It looks alot like the 2AV armor array, how much is that applicable to Leopard 2A4, considering that the armor layout between them were changed quite considerably?

 

It is a drawing based on documents from the German national archives. Wiedzmin made it based on the descriptions/drawings in the declassified documents. You will find more about it in the earlier pages of the topic.

 

Only new production Leopard 2A4 tanks made in and after 1988 received newer armor. All earlier Leopard 2A4s were made with the same armor as the original Leopard 2 production model of 1979. This armor is probably very similar to the one designed for the Leopard 2AV in 1976, as it is based on it.

 

15 hours ago, Pascal said:

So the German leopards 2 jumped over the second generation thermal imager's for the gunner's sight right to third generation?

 

Yes. The OPHELIOS second-generation thermal imager for the commander was created as cost saving measure, as the new European second-generation thermal imaging modules (developed during the TRIGAT project that included Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands and the UK) weren't available in time for production and would have very expensive during the early 1990s. The plan was to later replace OPHELIOS's thermal imaging module and the WBG-X completely with a new design utilizing the TRIGAT's thermal imaging module (that was introduced with the UHT Tiger in German service and also used on various other weapon systems such as the other Tiger variants,  the Leclerc, the Warrior IFV, the Scimitar scout vehicle and the T-90A as part of different thermal imagers), but upgrade plans came to an halt when the KWS III was canceled.

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2 hours ago, SH_MM said:

Yes. The OPHELIOS second-generation thermal imager for the commander was created as cost saving measure, as the new European second-generation thermal imaging modules (developed during the TRIGAT project that included Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands and the UK) weren't available in time for production and would have very expensive during the early 1990s. The plan was to later replace OPHELIOS's thermal imaging module and the WBG-X completely with a new design utilizing the TRIGAT's thermal imaging module (that was introduced with the UHT Tiger in German service and also used on various other weapon systems such as the other Tiger variants,  the Leclerc, the Warrior IFV, the Scimitar scout vehicle and the T-90A as part of different thermal imagers), but upgrade plans came to an halt when the KWS III was canceled.

 

Thank you very much for the information.

Shame German Leopards 2 gunner's went so much time without second generation thermals.

Couldn't gunners use the commanders second generation thermal for firing?

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1 hour ago, Pascal said:

Couldn't gunners use the commanders second generation thermal for firing?

 

Not as far as I am aware. The difference in image quality also wouldn't be very large, as OPHELIOS was very simple in order to be cost effective in the early 1990s, when the manufacturing of electronic components still was cumbersome and expensive.

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On 5/28/2020 at 12:01 PM, SH_MM said:

Shouldn't matter. The prototypes were built with weight simulators, not the actual armor packages. The different shape of the mantlet is related to the different guns mounted on the tank.

Comparing proto to production, yes it will matter....
 

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On 5/26/2020 at 3:19 PM, Yoshi_E said:

You think the value Rheinmetall has given is wrong? I doubt that.

The 3800kg weight is not given for the L/44 as on leo 2, but the LR version(s).


Not sure, but could be that it's the same for this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061103224651/http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/index.php?fid=1448&lang=3&pdb=1

 

On 5/26/2020 at 3:19 PM, Yoshi_E said:

It also matches the recently measured weight on Pz 87. The barrel weight is commonly given, and known for all L44 and L55 variants.
I think its more likely that the system or the armor on the system was changed, or increased in weight since 1982.
E.g. the Turnunion there was not manufactured that precise in 1980, it should also be slightly smaller due to additional paint layer. Other changes could be the recoil system. The mount system for the MG was also changed.

So, 150kg added.... 
From?
Things that changed (MRS, MG mount) aren't very significant in weight.

The Strv 121/122 doc has weights given for the 122 BTW, not the 121.
Note on the Pz 87 site: they list 56.5t (presumably because their tanks are C tech).

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12 hours ago, Laviduce said:

Does anyone know when the "E-technology" armor packages were introduced to the Leopard 2 line ? I heard that that happened over 10 years ago.

 

I cannot say when it was actually fielded, but according to an article written by Dieter Haug, who worked (maybe still works) as a protection expert for the Armament Directorate (then BWB, today BAAINBw) of the German Ministry of Defence, the B-technology armor was followed by C-, D- and E-technology armor as a reaction to the ever increasing penetration potential of newer weapons. The article is dated 2009 and provides a very good overview on the development of armor technology (including indirectly describing B-technology armor and Chobham armor as NERA).

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the E-technology armor was developed for the Leopard 2A6 EX demonstrator (simply based on the fact that it was designed to surpass the existing Leopard 2 variants in pretty much every aspect). It also might be related to the Leopard 2A7, which was in early stages of development by 2009 (first presented to the public in 2010).

 

8 hours ago, HAKI2019 said:

 

This should be a PERI R17A3L4 (L4 for Leopard 2A4).

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On 6/17/2020 at 11:17 PM, Laviduce said:

Does anyone know when the "E-technology" armor packages were introduced to the Leopard 2 line ? I heard that that happened over 10 years ago.

The development of the E -technology started 2002 as a private initiative of KMW to cover the expected threat of PG's fired from RPG-7. The design covered turret and chassis with add-on armour modules adapted to Leopard 2.

This technology was proved by German Army and sold by KMW to the Canadian Army for their Leopard 2 A4M CAN. A few vehicles were sent in 2010 to Afghanistan and performed pretty well. This technology can also be attached to Leopard 2 A7V as the attachment points have been foreseen at this MBT.

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On 6/21/2020 at 11:26 AM, Gun Ready said:

The development of the E -technology started 2002 as a private initiative of KMW to cover the expected threat of PG's fired from RPG-7. The design covered turret and chassis with add-on armour modules adapted to Leopard 2.

This technology was proved by German Army and sold by KMW to the Canadian Army for their Leopard 2 A4M CAN. A few vehicles were sent in 2010 to Afghanistan and performed pretty well. This technology can also be attached to Leopard 2 A7V as the attachment points have been foreseen at this MBT.

So E- technology armor packages are not meant to be armor inserts to replace the D-technology armor packages, they are meant just as add-on armor packages ?

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is the version of the Leopard 2A7+ purchased by Qatar, i.e. the Leopard 2A7Q (aka Leopard 2A7 QAT). No idea if this is really identical to the variant ordered by Hungary, but compared to the German Leopard 2A7(V), it has the full armor kit (including additional roof protection), the PERI RTWL-B from the Puma in place of the PERI R17A3, a third generation thermal imager and improved LRF for the gunner's EMES 15 sight, cross wind sesnor and the FLW-200 RWS on top of the turret.

 

It is basically KMW's late Leopard 2A7+ demonstrator with minimum changes. Qatar purchased the best possible configuration, while Germany initially didn't want to spend as much money, only to implement some of the lacking features in the Leopard 2A7V (and possibly in the follow-up variant, because both a LRF for the commander and a RWS are still on the Bundeswehr's tank crews' wish lists...).

 

I don't think the L/55A1 tank gun variant was available at the time of the Qatari purchase, but this is just my speculation.

 

 

Meng+35th+scale+Leopard+2A7+build+review

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