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The Leopard 2 Thread


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44 minutes ago, Voodoo said:

The trailer was 15 tons over weight. This doesn't have anything to do with the tank itself.


I doubt the trailer is 15 tons sans cargo, though… Leo2NO is probably overweight. 

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12 hours ago, Laser Shark said:

Agreed. Just to add even more evidence, this more recent (if rather small) image shows that they aren't outfitted with PERI RTWL either, which is one of the changes that appears to be more or less confirmed for the A7NO :

 

XOIch0A.jpg

Larger resolution image

 

FSEPJ4M.jpg

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2 hours ago, Lord_James said:


I doubt the trailer is 15 tons sans cargo, though… Leo2NO is probably overweight. 

 

I suspect it was considered too heavy with this particular type of transporter, seeing as they were able to pick it up with another transporter afterwards. This could mean that the transporter + cargo exceeded the 100 tonnes dispensation limit that applies to certain parts of the Norwegian road network or it could mean that the transporter itself didn’t meet the specific requirements to be granted such a dispensation. The latter seems more likely to me since a Norwegian Army Scania transporterr carrying a Leo 2A4NO apparently weighs 85 tonnes, and this doesn’t look like it should weigh 30 tonnes more than that.

 

Anywhere here is an interesting article about the subject (not this case specifically, but the issues that come with increasingly heavy AFVs as well as solutions) for those who are willing to make due with a translator.

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Okay, so here’s the explanation from the news site that first reported on this:

 

“The explanation, as we have understood it, is that the carrier had applied for a dispensation of 95 tonnes ( as is well known, 100 tonnes is the limit for a much more advanced device around transport).

 

The vehicle combination was measured at 102 tonnes, which is only 7 tonnes over. The reason for the extra 8 tonnes over legal, ie a total of 15 tonnes, is that the ratio between weight of truck and trailer has been exceeded.”

 

https://www.tungt.no/article/view/829425/en_tanks_til_besvaer_noen_forklaringer?ref=rss

 

I guess I was half right. It was actually a bit of both.

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  • 2 weeks later...
4 hours ago, HAKI2019 said:

Whether the weight is true?

 

Would at least make sense. The Evolution package for the Leopard 2 is designed with a weight limit of 60 tons. Singapore only purchased parts of this kit, so a sub-60 tons weight is expected.

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Definitely not. The basic Leopard 2 A4 has 55 metric tons combat weight. If the 58.7 tons are metric, the add-on armour would have 3.7 tons for turret and chassis. And that would be fake armour against nothing. MEXAS of former IBD was a little better than a fake.

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3 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

Definitely not. The basic Leopard 2 A4 has 55 metric tons combat weight. If the 58.7 tons are metric, the add-on armour would have 3.7 tons for turret and chassis.

 

The original side skirts are removed when applying the Evolution armor upgrade, so the total weight of the package is above 4 tons. The Singapore Army did not order the heavy "duel portion" of the Evolution kit (for improved protection against APFSDS rounds and ATGMs along the frontal arc), but only the anti-RPG armor. Such armor systems are not that heavy.

 

The Leopard 2A4M CAN weighs 62.5 tons, but features 3 tons of mine/IED protection that the Singaporean Leopard 2SG lacks. So the weight difference is some 800 kilograms, which is the result of the different armor technologies and protection requirements.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the 58.7 tons are the misquoted empty weight rather than the actual combat weight.

 

25 minutes ago, Laviduce said:

A couple of years ago I heard that the actual mass of the Leopard 2SG is around 72 metric tons ! I can not confirm this.

 

Singapore uses parts of the modular Evolution armor upgrade (with AMAP armor) from IBD. The weights of different tanks fitted with the full kit are known. None of them even scratches the 70 tons mark - even the Leopard 2 ATD with L/55 gun, APU and RWS weighs less.

 

___________________________________________

 

The weight of the track skirt armor for the Leopard 2 Evolution is 450 kg/m². Depending on desired protection level, the turret armor can be even lighter.

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Look to the yellow sticker below the right headlight!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdefense-studies.blogspot.com%2F2017%2F06%2Fsingapore-details-ongoing-upgrades-to.html&psig=AOvVaw1zaBEghoERV5DqUp8WnkYL&ust=1643645578808000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAgQjRxqFwoTCKii-Inv2fUCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAK

The 70 in the yellow sticker means a MLC (military load class) of 70 short tons. This 70 short tons converted in metric tons equals 0.91 * 70 = 63.5. So the weight for the the IDB AMAP is 63.5 - 55 = 8.5 metric tons. Even heavy this figure seems reasonable. AFAIK the Singis have just installed a pretty light crew AC / cooling system from KMW, not more add-ons.

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19 minutes ago, Gun Ready said:

The 70 in the yellow sticker means a MLC (military load class) of 70 short tons. This 70 short tons converted in metric tons equals 0.91 * 70 = 63.5. So the weight for the the IDB AMAP is 63.5 - 55 = 8.5 metric tons.

 

The military load class is not equivalent with the combat weight, but references the gross vehicle weight. The German Leopard 2A5 also has a MLC 70 rating, despite its combat weight being only 59.5 metric tons.

640px-Leopard_2A5_front_view.jpg

 

A Leopard 2A4 fitted with IBD's full Evolution kit has a weight of 60 metric tons. It was specifically designed to fit this limit, as the original torsion bars used on the early Leopard 2 tanks can only withstand 60 tons of weight - exceeding that weight requires an expensive change of torsion bars (that most people buying IBD's armor upgrade rather than KMW's more complex upgrades are not willing to pay).

 

PImOHDT.png

Singapore did not buy the full kit (no mine protection plate, no roof add-on armor and no frontal KE/ATGM protection module).

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/6/2022 at 2:03 PM, Voodoo said:

When I said the K9 had the most accurate gun I was not talking about the direct firing trials - I don't know the results. I meant the indirect firing only. I should have specified.

 

Sounds like an ammunition compatibility issue. As SH_MM mentioned the PzH trialed was an older type. Not sure why KMW didn't offer a newer version for the trials.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

Has somebody information on the Leopard 2 / K2 winter trials in Norway and how long they are going?

 

The trials should be over by now. No info other than that I'm afraid, well, apart from the fact that around the 19th they had to bring a couple of the tanks to Steinkjer in Central Norway due to too little snow at Rena...

 

tN8YWs1.jpg

 

ncxgk3V.jpg

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Leopard 2A7V with SAAB Barracuda MCS:

 

9NQGGJR.jpg

 

And here's a neat top-down shot from the winter trials, which also brings me to my next question. Do the tanks of the German Army come with this large box on top? I haven't been able to find any photos of this, so I'm guessing it could be a minor addition for the sake of these trials?

 

rOs4hFF.jpg

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9 hours ago, Sheffield said:

A new simulation of 2A5's turret w/wedges vs M829A2 just cropped up.

 

There is nothing in this video that has anything to do with the Leopard 2A5 (or the M829A2).

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On 3/31/2019 at 10:52 PM, Scav said:

http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37096&page=50

I've been looking for the original source on this for ages, short of buying the Greek magazine that detailed some parts of the Hellenic trials, nothing has come up.

Anyone know more about this?

 

 

From what we learn here in Greece from defence magazines (flight and space) they conduct more than 30 shots on the turret front with 120mm shells and AT missiles and air boblets on the turret to test the heavy roof armour.  5 120mm rounds were fired on the front and 2 were  penetrate the front armour from the gunners sight, a known weak spot from Leo-2A4 that was tried to rectified in the A5 and A6 versions. it was suposed to be rectified by armour piece and maybe eleveting more th sight and close the hole that used for cables. the company said it would be rectified. the Greek army refuse to accept the ready made tanks until the problem solved. that was done in september 2006. it was publiced in january 2007 in defence magazines. more thests were to be conducted in january 2007. i dont know other info but eventually greek army accepted the tanks so they reach some agreement. 

update:

the problem was solved by adding extra plate of armour in front of the gunners thermal sight weight of 192kg, and probably they raised the sight a bit. more firing tests were folowed and were succesfull on april of 2007 and the  delivering protocols resumed in october. mean wile new problems occure in 2008, hair cracks were developed arount the turret hatchets becouse of the extra turret armour stress in the roof in some tanks, and also peeling of the internal of the guns in some others. again the issues were resolved with measures taken. also the standard tracks of the tanks were insuficient for the 62 ton of the A6 model and already have tear, they were replaced by the stronger "mountain terrain" type in all tanks.

Edited by petros
new update info
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14 hours ago, SH_MM said:

 

There is nothing in this video that has anything to do with the Leopard 2A5 (or the M829A2).

Yup, aware of that. However i still find simulation like those "fun" all in all as they assume a lot of things but are hailed as Gospels of Truth by many.

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  • 1 month later...

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