French flair

[SH_MM]

14 hours ago, Serge said:

It’s not an MRAP drive line. 

 

The drive line is not from a MRAP, but certain design aspects seem to be inspired form them.

[Ramlaen]

 

[Serge]

This bar armour is laser cut. 
It’s light. But it’s ugly too on the Jaguar. 

[mr.T]

More likely cut on waterjet as laser would anneal the material on the cut and its also quite thick plate to cut .

[Lord_James]

Looks A LOT like the chicken wire armor on that one M46 in Korea. 

[Korvette]

Would this cage change anything? Sure it will prematurely detonate the incoming warhead (maybe) but would there be enough armor on the vehicle itself to stop the rest of the warhead?

[N-L-M]

Cage armors short out the warheads of certain weapons (primarily, anything which functions like a PG-7 with its nose piezo fuze and twin conductive cones to the base detonator), and prevent detonation of the warhead.

Strykers, which are notoriously paper thin, have been running around with cage armor for the better part of 2 decades, as an example.

[Beer]

1 hour ago, Korvette said:

Would this cage change anything? Sure it will prematurely detonate the incoming warhead (maybe) but would there be enough armor on the vehicle itself to stop the rest of the warhead?

 

As N-L-M wrote the principle of slat armor is different, it cuts the fuze of very old HEAT warheads like PG-7 or LAW-66 (I think). There is very little effect on HEAT warhead if it detonates at standoff distance offered by the slat armor. Something like 30-50 cm standoff distance can help if there is heavy tank armor behind but it has basically no protgective effect on lighter vehicles. There used to be a video on youtube of an RPG-18 (which is an old weapon with just 64 mm calibre) easily penetrating a BTR protected by slat armor all the way through in and and out.   

[N-L-M]

46 minutes ago, Beer said:

LAW-66 (I think). There is very little effect on HEAT warhead if it detonates at standoff distance offered by the slat armor.

American HEAT rounds tend to have a wire and not an internal cone, and so the shorting effect can't work the same: 

 

For very light vehicles, the increased standoff in case of detonation can offer one major advantage: it can prevent blast overpressure from rupturing the body, which is much nastier than the very focused shaped charge jet.

 

[LoooSeR]

1 hour ago, Beer said:

 

As N-L-M wrote the principle of slat armor is different, it cuts the fuze of very old HEAT warheads like PG-7 or LAW-66 (I think). There is very little effect on HEAT warhead if it detonates at standoff distance offered by the slat armor. Something like 30-50 cm standoff distance can help if there is heavy tank armor behind but it has basically no protgective effect on lighter vehicles. There used to be a video on youtube of an RPG-18 (which is an old weapon with just 64 mm calibre) easily penetrating a BTR protected by slat armor all the way through in and and out.   

   Later Soviet RPGs had additional inertial fuze IIRC, which makes slat armor less usefull.

[Korvette]

Defusing an old RPG fuze is one thing but  doing it reliably and also defending against other things is another. As this raises up an important point. Looking at the Stryker or CR2(Another thing is that the Stryker also can mount ceramic composite packages over the wheels and hull itself for additional protection which I'm not sure if the Jaguar has), these are very thick cages on them, but the Jaguar's looks almost like wire. I wonder if the cage itself seems to be strong enough to stop an oncoming projectile, and that is it even worth it to have the cage just for really old fuzes, while insurgents and terrorists/whatever probably only have old fuzes, we've seen tanks face up against RPG-29's and have damage inflicted to them even though the only expect threat was RPG-7's.

 

This simulation shows a perfect scenario but I want to point out to the thickness of the cage here, in scale with the warhead, its very thick but the Jaguar's looks quite thin.

[FORMATOSE]

 

 

[N-L-M]

Very nice pics, we can see the primary attraction of the 40CT in that first pic

[Beer]

On 6/5/2021 at 2:50 AM, Korvette said:

Defusing an old RPG fuze is one thing but  doing it reliably and also defending against other things is another. As this raises up an important point. Looking at the Stryker or CR2(Another thing is that the Stryker also can mount ceramic composite packages over the wheels and hull itself for additional protection which I'm not sure if the Jaguar has), these are very thick cages on them, but the Jaguar's looks almost like wire. I wonder if the cage itself seems to be strong enough to stop an oncoming projectile, and that is it even worth it to have the cage just for really old fuzes, while insurgents and terrorists/whatever probably only have old fuzes, we've seen tanks face up against RPG-29's and have damage inflicted to them even though the only expect threat was RPG-7's.

 

I remember seeing somewhere that statistically in Afghanistan or Iraq around 95% of projectiles fired on the vehicles have been RPG-7 hence it still makes a lot of sense to defend against the old threats if those are the far most common ones. The issue is that anything able to stop more advanced rounds is way more expensive than simple slats. In the end if one of hundred RPGs fired is RPG-29 it makes no real impact on the operation even if it sucks for the particular crew whose vehicle was hit by it. 

[Serge]

About the EBRC Jaguar reconnaissance vehicle. 
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=5622665497774689&id=127131997328094

[FORMATOSE]

@Serge

 

[Serge]

14 minutes ago, Sovngard said:

@Serge

 

I’m closer to the third one.

[Serge]

 Once more, we are forwarding in a strange direction. 

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/texelis-and-cnim-team-for-new-engineer-vehicle

[David Moyes]

 

[Lord_James]

Question: for the Ascalon’s ammo, it is referred to as “telescopic”. Aren’t most (if not all) modern tank gun APFSDS telescoping? Or am I misunderstanding the terminology? 

[TokyoMorose]

4 hours ago, Lord_James said:

Question: for the Ascalon’s ammo, it is referred to as “telescopic”. Aren’t most (if not all) modern tank gun APFSDS telescoping? Or am I misunderstanding the terminology? 

 

While many rounds today have the projectile extend partially into the cartridge, a telescoped round has the *entire* projectile in the cartridge - so the round is just a cylinder.

 

4 hours ago, David Moyes said:

 

 

Uncomfortable shades of past French "multinational" programs here. You can have a multinational project with them, so long as they are allowed to make all of the core decisions (and coincidentally or not so coincidentally those decisions are often to the benefit of French firms).

[Lord_James]

1 hour ago, TokyoMorose said:

While many rounds today have the projectile extend partially into the cartridge, a telescoped round has the *entire* projectile in the cartridge - so the round is just a cylinder.

The concept photo in the tweet directly below looks like a normal APFSDS to me, but that also just might be because they don’t really have a concept photo of the ammo yet. 
 

1 hour ago, TokyoMorose said:

You can have a multinational project with them, so long as they are allowed to make all of the core decisions (and coincidentally or not so coincidentally those decisions are often to the benefit of French firms).

This sounds like most “producer” countries, like the US, Germany, and Britain. If they’re the one’s producing, they get the say in what’s produced. This is why (in my uneducated opinion) these programs will all fail in the end. 

[N-L-M]

The only way a multi-national design can shake out properly (that is, be cheaper than 2 individual designs), is if there is a clear demarcation of fields of responsibility, and each component only gets designed once. When your participants are both capable of designing a full vehicle, and both want to keep their industries alive by keeping the design and manufacturing in-house, well then the business relationship they're looking for is a manufacturer-client one, not a partnership. Which won't work out well.

[SH_MM]

At the current point of time, the industry will come up with various proposals - such as Nexter proposing the ASCALON gun concept, Rheinmetall proposing its 130 mm L/51 gun - for the different vehicle categories and sub-systems. The "best" propsals will be selected. It is only normal for Nexter to keep marketing its ASCALON gun for the MGCS, even though currently most relevant factors (maturity, performance, technical risk) favor Rheinmetall's offer.

 

The real problem is that France is extremely unwilling to let its state-owned industry go empty-handed...

[Serge]