French flair

[SH_MM]

According to the German company GEKE Schutztechnik GmbH, it also delivers armor components/solutions for the Leclerc main battle tank. Is there a French source with any further info on that matter?

[DarkLabor]

1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

According to the German company GEKE Schutztechnik GmbH, it also delivers armor components/solutions for the Leclerc main battle tank. Is there a French source with any further info on that matter?

Just look at the next vehicle they quote, you can fairly piece it together.

[SH_MM]

6 hours ago, DarkLabor said:

Just look at the next vehicle they quote, you can fairly piece it together.

 

If you are referencing the ERA solution fielded on the UAE's Leclerc in Yemen: this is made by Dynamit Nobel Defence, not by GEKE GST.

 

GEKE provides the roof armor, mine protection plate and components for the NERA for the Puma IFV.

[DarkLabor]

18 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

 

If you are referencing the ERA solution fielded on the UAE's Leclerc in Yemen: this is made by Dynamit Nobel Defence, not by GEKE GST.

 

GEKE provides the roof armor, mine protection plate and components for the NERA for the Puma IFV.

Yes DND provides the ERA packages but there is another modification that got made. And I don't think Nexter got contracted for it...
Once again, it is not necessary to look far :
https://dn-defence.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/NEW_Folder_DND_Protection-scaled.jpg

 

My best guess is that they did not touch the first 7 elements. And only sub-contracted GEKE for the 3 at the back, plus attach points...

[SH_MM]

 

Okay, I see. GEKE GST was likely responsible for the "modify and optimize existing passive armor elements" part. That makes sense.

 

I am not sure if mixing old and new passive skirt armor elements makes sense. GEKE also could have replaced the internals of the existing skirt panels and added new ones at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alzoc]

Video of the Jaguar corresponding to the pictures posted last page :

 

 

Griffon and VBCI further down the thread.

[DarkLabor]

56 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

I am not sure if mixing old and new passive skirt armor elements makes sense. GEKE also could have replaced the internals of the existing skirt panels and added new ones at the same time.

You are right, it doesn't make sense for a perfect protection.
But in the end, the client is almighty.
Depending on his choices, the modifications can be cost-effective with minimal changes.
Or it can be an entire overhaul with high expenses (price and mass-balance).

Since yesterday, I checked some photos of the "nude" tanks that received the CLARA packages. And it seems (to me at least) that the skirts are indeed slightly different.
So you may be right regarding the passive skirt armor.

[Alzoc]

Griffon, VBL and 10 RC in snow :

 

Spoiler

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOPLhHLXwAEgCvG?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FORv2DnXEAUjCjX?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOPMUpOXMAIyJDD?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOPMUpGWUAcaYxu?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOHWO5IWYCEV7SU?format=jpg&name=medium

 

[Alzoc]

Leclerc XLR mockup :

 

 

[Serge]

We are very strong in misunderstanding everything. 

[FORMATOSE]

On 4/22/2022 at 12:00 AM, Serge said:

We are very strong in misunderstanding everything. 

 

Tropicalized/AZUR Leclerc ATO RWS sacrificed on the altar of the commonality.

[SH_MM]

Spoiler

Something about French people messaging me about this being classified.

[mr.T]

Looks like fiberglass storage bins instead of armor

 

https://ibb.co/ykY5nhX
https://ibb.co/Cnc79nn

[Alzoc]

9 minutes ago, mr.T said:

Looks like fiberglass storage bins instead of armor

The bins are placed on top of the armor modules :

 

 

[Alzoc]

First fours Serval (VBMR light) delivered to the army :

 

 

https://www.forcesoperations.com/le-ministere-des-armees-receptionne-les-quatre-premiers-serval/

[Serge]

Very good video about the next French pattern 

 

[Alzoc]

Replacement of the rubber pads on the tracks of an Au F1 SPG, followed by the reinstallation of said track :

 

 

[Alzoc]

Photos of Caesar in Ukraine :

 

Tweet trad :

Quote

Three combat crews from a separate artillery brigade "Zaporizhzhya Sich" fired 155-mm shells at the enemy. Arrived at the position,… 50 sec - "Before the battle", range - 22110 meters, 4-5 shots per minute, 55 sec "Rebound", disappeared!

 

What is surprising in this tweet is that they say that they used the gun at a range of only 22 km (and a previous tweet talked about a range of 20+ km). Either the Ukrainians know exactly what they are shooting at and put themselves just out of range, or they are not using the full range of the gun on purpose (either for greater accuracy or to prolong the live of the barrel by reducing the charge needed).

 

DGA also gave more informations on the Caesar sent to Ukraine. Apparently only 6 were sent (for now?) when the initial rumours talked about 10 or 12. Contrary to what was initially suspected, those guns were not taken from the Moroccan order but directly from French army stock (leaving us with only 70 of them for now). It has been however confirmed that the software of the guns has been adapted in order to make it compatible with the Ukrainian artillery management system (meaning that they were being prepared for shipment long before it was announced by Macron).

 

http://www.opex360.com/2022/05/28/le-delegue-general-pour-larmement-donne-des-precisions-sur-les-caesar-cedes-a-lukraine/

[TokyoMorose]

11 hours ago, Alzoc said:

What is surprising in this tweet is that they say that they used the gun at a range of only 22 km (and a previous tweet talked about a range of 20+ km). Either the Ukrainians know exactly what they are shooting at and put themselves just out of range, or they are not using the full range of the gun on purpose (either for greater accuracy or to prolong the live of the barrel by reducing the charge needed).

 

DGA also gave more informations on the Caesar sent to Ukraine. Apparently only 6 were sent (for now?) when the initial rumours talked about 10 or 12. Contrary to what was initially suspected, those guns were not taken from the Moroccan order but directly from French army stock (leaving us with only 70 of them for now). It has been however confirmed that the software of the guns has been adapted in order to make it compatible with the Ukrainian artillery management system (meaning that they were being prepared for shipment long before it was announced by Macron).

 

I think we might have an answer right in that text. What if the Ukrainian Artillery Management system has baked-in planning assumptions for ranges to be used at?

[Alzoc]

11 hours ago, TokyoMorose said:

What if the Ukrainian Artillery Management system has baked-in planning assumptions for ranges to be used at?

That's a possibility though I doubt it. I think Ukraine still have a few 152 mm guns from the soviet era as well as their own truck based 155 mm (in very small number), so it's not like they never used artillery with a greater range than ~20km.

 

A software or programming error is always possible I guess though it would greatly diminish the value of those guns. What's the point of having a very small number of guns that can outrange Russian artillery if you treat it like a regular 155 mm L39 or a 122 mm D-30? We might get an answer when the PzH 2000 arrive in Ukraine (guessing they'll adapt the software for integration as well).

[Beer]

On 5/29/2022 at 1:02 PM, Alzoc said:

That's a possibility though I doubt it. I think Ukraine still have a few 152 mm guns from the soviet era as well as their own truck based 155 mm (in very small number), so it's not like they never used artillery with a greater range than ~20km.

 

A software or programming error is always possible I guess though it would greatly diminish the value of those guns. What's the point of having a very small number of guns that can outrange Russian artillery if you treat it like a regular 155 mm L39 or a 122 mm D-30? We might get an answer when the PzH 2000 arrive in Ukraine (guessing they'll adapt the software for integration as well).

 

When you don't use guided ammo the hit probability at ranges over 20 km is getting drastically reduced. When you need to fire just a few rounds and quickly disappear you have to do it from closer ranges to have a chance to actually destroy the target. For longer ranges guided ammo or a long sustained fire is needed which means that the long range guns bring real advantage only when used with guided rounds, without them not that much. 

[Serge]

1 hour ago, Beer said:

 

When you don't use guided ammo the hit probability at ranges over 20 km is getting drastically reduced. When you need to fire just a few rounds and quickly disappear you have to do it from closer ranges to have a chance to actually destroy the target. For longer ranges guided ammo or a long sustained fire is needed which means that the long range guns bring real advantage only when used with guided rounds, without them not that much. 

No. 
accuracy is achieved until 3/4 of the maximum range. 

[Beer]

1 hour ago, Serge said:

No. 
accuracy is achieved until 3/4 of the maximum range. 

 

That's not true. The dispersion of fire is a function of range through the whole range, mainly because of the time the projectile flies (it is affected by wind through the whole flight). 

 

Per STANAG 4635 the standard CEP50 for unguided HE projectile is 0,56% at 10 km (56 meters); 0,65% of range at 20 km (130 meters); 0,86% of range at 30 km (258 meters) and 1,15% of range at 40 km (460 meters). 

[Serge]

It’s a little bit more complexe. 
when your maximum range with a given ammo is 40000, your tactical range is 30000, not 40000. And it works. 
So, the 4635 CEP at 40000 is of no interest. 
More : when one knows how precision ammo are working, it’s funny to quote a maximum range CEP. 

[Alzoc]

1 hour ago, Beer said:

Per STANAG 4635 the standard CEP50 for unguided HE projectile is 0,56% at 10 km (56 meters); 0,65% of range at 20 km (130 meters); 0,86% of range at 30 km (258 meters) and 1,15% of range at 40 km (460 meters).

I don't know if this norm takes in account the presence or absence of a muzzle radar, let alone what "rating" the Caesar may achieve under this norm (I don't know it well enough). But the circular error will be hugely affected by a muzzle radar because artillery shells don't land within a circle but within an ellipse (longer diameter along the direction of travel of the shell). A muzzle radar bring back this error into the shape of a real circle meaning the circular error obtained is much, much smaller :

 

 

Even if you don't use a guided or programmable shell, knowing the true ballistics (which you can't accurately predict) of your round when it exit the gun allows you to compensate somewhat for internal ballistics (which will depend of the wear, temperature and the metallurgy of the barrel) when you'll fire your next shell, greatly reducing longitudinal dispersion.