Britons are in trouble

[David Moyes]

Forgot to post:
 

"Gaijin plz add"

[Beer]

Some historical curiosity, probably not known to you guys. After WW2 Czechoslovak army had a wild mix of tanks of Soviet, German, British, American and own origins. The western machinery didn't have a long service due to a lack of spares after the communist power takeover however some Cromwells ended being rebuilt as electric excavators in mines (with cables instead of batteries) and serving for another decades in this role. To this day some 5-6 such chassis exist owned by various museums or collectors and some of them are being rebuilt back to the tank form (Smržovka muzeum piece at least, the one was once probably a Centaur). This is how the strange excavator looked like. The photos are roughly 20 years old when it was still posasible to find the vehicles in some mines (unserviceable). 

https://www.valka.cz/CZK-THV-01-tankovy-haldovy-vykopnik-t84828 

[heretic88]

2 hours ago, Beer said:

some Cromwells ended being rebuilt as electric excavators in mines (with cables instead of batteries) and serving for another decades in this role.

I bet they werent too successful. Probably there wasnt anything better. Military vehicles are totally unsuitable for conversion to excavators, wheel loaders, dozers, etc. Main problem: the presence of suspension. (also the lack of durability)

Btw, if Im not mistaken, some Jagdpanzer 38ts were also converted to some auxiliary mining vehicles or light tractors, I saw some photos about them.

[SH_MM]

https://www.nao.org.uk/report/departmental-overview-2019-20-ministry-of-defence/

 

Original IOC of Ajax was expected on 31 July 2020. IOC is now expected in June 2021, but in-service date has been moved to January 2021 (page 19). 

[David Moyes]

Challenger 2(E) Promotional Posters



 

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That vehicle, as the title says, is Challenger 2E. Only existed as a single example. This is the first Challenger 2 prototype vehicle, V1. From my book - V1. Registration number 06SP87 was used as a general trial’s vehicle. Environmental and other areas of performance were tested. V1 was sold back to Vickers Defence Systems to enable development work to commence on Project Copenhagen, the tank eventually to be the Challenger 2 that was built for Oman. V1, much modified as Challenger 2E, still exists as a Gate Guardian at the BAE facility in Telford.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/chally/permalink/3827327810631274/

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CV12 Remanufacture 



 

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Challenger 1 Rolls Royce / Perkins CV12 (4A) after completion of its remanufacture and awaiting packaging to 'Level J' standard and another one during engine assembly back in the 1990's.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/chally/permalink/3796493567048032/

[SH_MM]

 

[FORMATOSE]

Now that its protection level has been finally revealed, I'm curious about the Osório.

[TokyoMorose]

So, here's some pictures of the CR2E in training kit with a strange camo.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by TokyoMorose
Figured out what it was after headdesk.

[David Moyes]

@TokyoMorose

Regular CR2. Camo is Greek.

[SH_MM]

The engine compartment is different though.

[David Moyes]

Figured it out. It's a regular turret on a E hull. 

I didn't notice the different rear and then thought it was a re-painted Omani version as they have different cooling exhausts:



I had also forgotten that the version used in Greek trials had a mantle-mounted optic but used the updated periscope:



I wonder why it was changed? Previously the regular CR2E was the one being advertised to Greece:

[BaronTibere]

AFAIK the one at Greek trials still had TOGs installed but the CR2E spec at that point was to remove it, it just hadn't been done yet - I think the one on display was later on.

 

The strange CR2E pictured above is for the South African proposal, idk much about it but it appears to be a slightly more austere version compared to full CR2E spec - euro powerpack but standard optics. In any case I believe it lost out to the Leclerc but neither went ahead.

 

Source: Simon Dunstan,

[David Moyes]

lol I thought it was Greek camo because I combined these 2 schemes together in my head:

[Laviduce]

On 1/14/2021 at 4:18 PM, BaronTibere said:

AFAIK the one at Greek trials still had TOGs installed but the CR2E spec at that point was to remove it, it just hadn't been done yet - I think the one on display was later on.

 

The strange CR2E pictured above is for the South African proposal, idk much about it but it appears to be a slightly more austere version compared to full CR2E spec - euro powerpack but standard optics. In any case I believe it lost out to the Leclerc but neither went ahead.

 

Source: Simon Dunstan,

So the Leclerc wont the South African competition ? How did it win it ? I never heard of that competition until now. Is there any more information floating around out there ?

[BaronTibere]

That's the only mention I've seen on the internet. Idk if he burried it in a book somewhere or not, I suppose there might be vickers archive documents about it.

[SH_MM]

There are a few other mentions. Army Guide's article on the Olifant (which is literally stolen from Jane's Armour and Artillery) for example mentions:

Quote

Future South African MBT

 

It was expected that the current Olifant Mk 1 series of MBT would have been replaced by a new MBT in the early part of the 21 st century.

There were two contenders to meet this requirement, the French Giat Industries Tropicalised Leclerc and the British Vickers Defence Systems Challenger 2E.

The requirement was for 96 new MBTs, six armoured recovery vehicles and four armoured vehicle launched bridges on a similar chassis.

Late in 1998 South Africa announced that it was to order a major package of new defence equipment but MBTs were not part of this package.

 

Global Security's article on the TTD mentions:

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South Africa has a requirement for between 95 and 108 MBTs, and as of 1998 had short listed Vickers and the French GIAT concern as final bidders. Vickers Defence Systems campaign proposedr the Challenger 2E MBT in the later phase of South Africa's Defence spending program. This order would represent new business worth approximately £600 million for the company GIAT is offering its Leclerc MBT, is the first Western MBT to be deployed with an automatic loader, and a crew of only three.

 

Apparently there were also plans to allow Denel to manufacture propellant for the British Challenger 2 tanks as part of the proposal:

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THE planned closure of the Bishopton munitions plant on the outskirts of Glasgow late next year could cost British Aerospace two contracts worth an initial #200m and prove fatal to the long-term survival of ammunition production in the UK.

The site near Glasgow produces two tank shell propellants so technologically advanced that they are kept secret even from the United States, Britain's closest ally.

 

[...]

 

One propellant is also a key element in the sales pitch now under way to persuade a number of overseas customers to buy the Challenger 2E, the export version of the British Army's fleet of main battle tanks, in a package which includes shells and training.

 

[...]

 

The analysis says that the quest for a foreign partner with a cheaper cost-base than Bishopton had been narrowed to the United States and South Africa, but that only low-tech contracts could be given to Pretoria, since it was regarded as a security risk by the UK's Ministry of Defence.

Senior management visiting South Africa to discuss the sale of Challenger 2 tanks were ''prevented from discussing any aspect of CHARM 3 (state-of-the-art tank ammunition) with either Denel or the South African government by the UK Ministry of Defence.'' Denel is South Africa's biggest arms manufacturer.

The analysis adds: ''One significant problem which exists with South Africa is that they are considered to be a security risk by the UK MoD.''

 

 

[Serge]

Considering the Leclerc MBT for SA army, it was only talks. Leclerc was too expensive. 

[LoooSeR]

   How to counteract IEDs - PuT sOMe RoCkeT ENgiNeS

   V-shapes hulls have advantage of being passive and requiring no electronics or sensors to work.

[Laviduce]

 

Not sure if this has been posted before:

 

 

from: https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com/2021/01/about-challenger-1-mbt-weight-breakdown.html

[David Moyes]

General Dynamics UK have created a virtual expo complete with a 3D model viewer for Ajax and Foxhound:
https://gdgoesvirtual.com/ls/event.html
Password = GD2021

Interesting things like an electronic drive system for Foxhound:



and the world's most useful periscope:

[Steve]

On 08/12/2018 at 5:16 PM, Xlucine said:

 

That'd be a whole new level of effort - you'd need to design the shortened gun, test it, work out ballistic data for all natures of ammunition, and reprogram the FCS.

What would your Abrahams be without British armour?  Hiw many Abrahams have been list? How many Chally's have been lost. Answer 1 to another Chally.  End of argument. 

[LoooSeR]

52 minutes ago, Steve said:

What would your Abrahams be without British armour?  Hiw many Abrahams have been list? How many Chally's have been lost. Answer 1 to another Chally.  End of argument. 

   Everybody knows that Abrahamanus is the worst tank in the world, but Challenged 2 is best because it have rifled gun and fire HESH! Very Strong! 

[Sten]

Don't mock the superior rifled two-piece ammo... in the end the bongs were right APFSDS is just solid shot!

[DIADES]

14 hours ago, Steve said:

How many Chally's have been lost.

Including not making it to the fight cos made in England?

[David Moyes]

On 2/3/2021 at 9:31 AM, DIADES said:

Including not making it to the fight cos made in England?

Challenger 1 had 98% availability during the Gulf War. Only attrition being two CR1s driving into each other and breaking their guns at the very beginning.

Challenger 2 had a similar availability during the Iraq invasion and only downtime was due to a massive sandstorm.

CR line has it's share of problems but reliability generally isn't one.