SH_MM Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said: It's not really a competitor if none makes Challenger 2 hulls anymore. Well, the Tweet said "mate to a new hull". But designing a Leopard 2 competitor when work on the Leopard 2 replacement is under way really seems like a scheme to sell the new turret to the UK. "You finally have a tank to compete against last gen's MBT." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said: It's not really a competitor if none makes Challenger 2 hulls anymore. Read the second tweet from Turnbull about what his sources say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 "brand new welded turret" LoooSeR, Scav, Met749 and 1 other 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan_Ghost_Bear Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 It's entirely possible they based the design of the new turret on the old one, but the ammunition is now housed in the bustle. That would require enough modification to be a new design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Moyes Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Clearer images: "New Turret" refers to the turret citadel, with re-used equipment mounted on it. Clan_Ghost_Bear, Xlucine and Karamazov 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Is a completely new turret or a new rear half welded on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan_Ghost_Bear Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, Ramlaen said: Is a completely new turret or a new rear half welded on? Since the ammo storage was moved, it would have to be completely new if they wanted to carry a reasonable amount of rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Moyes Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ramlaen said: Is a completely new turret or a new rear half welded on? Completely new citadel. The old one was cast. Qinetiq using CR2 as an example for their EX-Drive. A new powerpack is being investigated in a separate programme. Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramlaen Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 39 minutes ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said: Since the ammo storage was moved, it would have to be completely new if they wanted to carry a reasonable amount of rounds. Correct me if I am wrong but the L30 projectiles stored in the turret were in the bustle, the extreme similarity of the new turret is what leads me to suspect they upsizing the bustle to carry single piece ammunition instead of creating a whole new turret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N-L-M Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 54 minutes ago, Ramlaen said: upsizing the bustle You'd also have to make it a blowoff compartment, which requires significant cutting and welding work. Much less than a new turret would require but still not a small job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xlucine Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Bigger, armoured bustle would add weight, no? And rolled plates (especially modern rolled plate) is more mass efficient than cast armour? So the new welded turret could be to free up some weight margin for the bustle stowage, if they have it for the new gun. 4 hours ago, SH_MM said: "brand new welded turret" Given the lack of step, they're either proposing a massive reduction in roof armour thickness or a new turret. The positions of the turret crew are unlikely to have changed, why would the loaders periscope or gunners sight show up in a different location? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Scolopax, Laviduce, Clan_Ghost_Bear and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scav Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Is it just me or does this new turret feature additional armour? That's either a shitty fit and finish, or a roof add-on module. Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Scav said: Is it just me or does this new turret feature additional armour? The roof armor is always thicker on some places of the Challenger 2. Most likely they added some sheet metal plates to make it look "flush and aerodynamic". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scav Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 minute ago, SH_MM said: The roof armor is always thicker on some places of the Challenger 2. Most likely they added some sheet metal plates to make it look "flush and aerodynamic". Could be, doesn't appear to be a final design, though it's no PL-01. If they did rework parts of the turret, they could've done away with the toilet and other unnecessary items, possibly lowering the profile and having extra room on-top, though I would question the location of the optics then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Moyes Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Touched-up the photo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Moyes Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 "Speaking at the International Armoured Vehicle event in Twickenham, London, Mr Simpson added that the turret would also include a new armour fit, although details are not publicly disclosable."https://www.monch.com/mpg/news/land/4822-rheinmetall-challenger-2.html Army HQ are recommending Trophy MV for across AFV fleet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoflSeal Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 23 hours ago, SH_MM said: "brand new welded turret" I guess these are same turrets as well What a contrived way to make an asinine statement Clan_Ghost_Bear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 T-80U and T-90 share FCS elements and ERA, what a wonder that they look similar. Tanks designed with the same technology mounting exactly the same components and featuring the same internal crew layout happen to look similar! The M1 Abrams uses different variants of the same turret design, again mounting the same components. The Challenger 2's "brand new" turret keeps re-using the same (outdated) components, effectively not making it a brand new turret. It is a deep modification with new steel structure and some armor changes along the turret bustle. Scav 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scav Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 @SH_MM Don't bother with him, he just likes trolling for the sake of trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoflSeal Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 45 minutes ago, SH_MM said: T-80U and T-90 share FCS elements and ERA, what a wonder that they look similar. Tanks designed with the same technology mounting exactly the same components and featuring the same internal crew layout happen to look similar! The M1 Abrams uses different variants of the same turret design, again mounting the same components. The Challenger 2's "brand new" turret keeps re-using the same (outdated) components, effectively not making it a brand new turret. It is a deep modification with new steel structure and some armor changes along the turret bustle. What are these "outdated" elements shown in this render?. Different gunner's sight that is clearly a dual-mode day/FLIR sight. The current outdated sight is a day sight only. Red and dark blue boxes are 1x periscopes. The loader's periscope sometimes seen replaced with a RWS on the current Challenger 2s. How are the commander's copula periscopes out dated? These things are clearly present in modern manned turreted vehicles such as the Leo 2A7V and M1A2C in the same capacity; i.e. 1x wide angle view periscopes. The yellow box. A coaxial machine gun, clearly an outdated concept according to you. A wind/temperature sensor, clearly an archaic device, fit only for obsolete tanks such as the T-14 Armata. You can clearly see a change in the commanders periscope, it has been moved aft, and it is dual-mode day/FLIR. This is not the "same (outdated) component(s)" as on the current Challenger 2 in service with the British Army. This is the biggest difference along with the removal of the TOGS, clearly though they haven't been marked by you for probably some nefarious reason. 43 minutes ago, Scav said: @SH_MM Don't bother with him, he just likes trolling for the sake of trolling. No, lovey I just don't stand complete and utter bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scav Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, RoflSeal said: No, lovey I just don't stand complete and utter bullshit. Ha, right, so that should include things you say. There's a good reason to point out what if anything changed on the new turret, noone said it was the same turret, people just pointed out how despite the claim of a "brand new turret", not a lot actually changed on the turret, the layout is still the same, very relevant to point out. That's not called "bullshit", but an astute remark which could indicate how much actually changed. Also, since when is pointing out typical marketing quotes "utter bullshit"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoflSeal Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Scav said: Ha, right, so that should include things you say. There's a good reason to point out what if anything changed on the new turret, noone said it was the same turret, people just pointed out how despite the claim of a "brand new turret", not a lot actually changed on the turret, the layout is still the same, very relevant to point out. That's not called "bullshit", but an astute remark which could indicate how much actually changed. So from the M46 to the M1 Abrams, nothing has changed with the turrets, the layout of the crew and periscopes is still very much the same, just with "deep modifications" T-90A's welded turret is not a brand new turret. Not a lot has actually changed from it's previous iterations. If we go to a welded turret (as Rhm say) from a, presumably, cast turret previously when the Challenger 2 was first produced 2 decades ago or so, that is new manufacture, by definition it is a brand new turret. Even if the original Challenger 2 turret was welded, doesn't matter, it is new manufacture, it uses new (modern) steels (as Rhm have said). It's weight is different (Rhm say the turret will be lighter so other equipment can be mounted for no overall weight gain). Layout of the certain periscopes doesn't matter, if it works, don't change it stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scav Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 Just now, RoflSeal said: So from the M46 to the M1 Abrams, nothing has changed with the turrets, the layout of the crew and periscopes is still very much the same, just with "deep modifications" T-90A's welded turret is not a brand new turret. Not a lot has actually changed from it's previous iterations. If we go to a welded turret (as Rhm say) from a, presumably, cast turret previously when the Challenger 2 was first produced 2 decades ago or so, that is new manufacture, by definition it is a brand new turret. Strawman argument..... As has been pointed out, much of the turret looks the same, this could very well be a modified turret and not the final "brand new turret". So you might call it "brand new", but in reality it's like the difference between the M1 and IPM1 turret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoflSeal Posted January 23, 2019 Report Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Scav said: Strawman argument..... As has been pointed out, much of the turret looks the same, this could very well be a modified turret and not the final "brand new turret". So you might call it "brand new", but in reality it's like the difference between the M1 and IPM1 turret. I don't know what you smoke, but the IPM1 had a brand new turret compared to the M1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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