Starter Firearm Thread

[That’s Suspicious]

So after doing some sluething on my state laws, I discovered some pretty major loopholes in handgun ownership for those under 21 (I’m 19)

From what I’ve gathered and from what I’ve been told by those I know in law enforcement and those currently serving in the military, I can legally own a handgun and actually carry the handgun in my vehicle even though I’m not 21 due to some loopholes in handgun and firearm ownership laws. 

What would be a good starter handgun to buy as my first handgun? I would like to buy one now and then get my CCW and use that handgun for when I’m legally allowed to carry it on my person. I personally wouldn’t mind carrying SOME full sized handguns like a Glock 17 or M&P 2.0

Also what would be a good starter AR to get that’s below $1,000; that’s another firearm on my list to soon get.

[Sturgeon]

Moved to the appropriate subforum.

First of all, the provisions you are outlining are not "loopholes" as they are explicitly outlined in Federal law. Specifically, 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1) from the 1968 Gun Control Act, the BATFE advisement about which states:
 

Quote

May an individual between the ages of 18 and 21 years of age acquire a handgun from an unlicensed individual who is also a resident of that same State?

An individual between 18 and 21 years of age may acquire a handgun from an unlicensed individual who resides in the same State, provided the person acquiring the handgun is not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A Federal firearms licensee may not, however, sell or deliver a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to a person the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under 21 years of age.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

 

Provided that your state has no relevant prohibitions, then, yes you may acquire a handgun from a non-FFL ("unlicensed individual"), usually via gifting. I would be very careful how you conduct this as it's relatively easy to create a condition that could be regulated by state or Federal law. For example, if you live with your parents in a state with no additional regulations and are over 18, your father or mother may gift you a handgun without issue. However, if your father lives in another state, this would fall under interstate commerce and would be illegal, as interstate transactions must go through an FFL (who can't sell you the firearm).

Gun shows are dicey in this way because generally speaking you don't have any way to verify that the seller lives in your state or not. You can ask for ID, but that's not a surefire thing either. If you do decide to go this route, I would definitely insist on seeing an ID and photographing it.

 

Another thing to worry about is accidentally conducting a straw purchase. If, for example, you had the above case with your parent, but instead of a Christmas gift, you reimbursed them for the gun then that would become a straw purchase and a Federal crime. More confusingly, if this handgun were already owned by your parents (if for example it was Grandpa's gun), and you bought it off them, that would not be a straw purchase and would be legal. There are also, so far as I know, no regulations against trades of handguns between individuals who reside in the same state. So, conceivably, you could trade for a privately owned handgun, for example - but we enter yet another grey area if the gun you are trading for was purchased with the knowledge that you'd be trading for it. In this case it's possible that this could be considered a straw purchase in the same way as if you had bought the weapon from them with cash.

 

Given the above, I would go about acquiring a handgun very carefully. Some Don'ts, Dos, and Mays:

 

DON'T arrange for someone else to buy a gun for you from an online store or any place with an FFL. This is one of the key ingredients of a straw purchase - if they can prove you arranged the purchase ahead of time, bad day for you.

DON'T purchase from or trade with people who are not family members or very close friends (e.g., you've been to their house). It's the only way to be sure.

 

DON'T post on online message boards or Facebook groups conspicuous or incriminating requests for handguns

DON'T use Armslist to arrange a private sale. Armslist is a cesspit, full of scams and ne'erdowells, just avoid it. You'll thank me.

 

DON'T go "gun shopping" for a handgun with anyone who might want to sell or gift you a gun unless they agree not to buy anything from that store. Even if it's innocent, "hey dad, I want that one" followed by an attempted sale will give any decent gun store clerk the heebie jeebies.

 

DO let people you know and trust know you want a handgun, and which kind. As long as you don't plan for them to purchase a gun, this is fine. And you may get lucky, or find someone wants to sell a gun you'd be happy with. You never know without bringing it up.

 

DO inform those you know who may be willing to sell, trade, or gift you a handgun what the relevant laws are. Show them the BATFE regulations using your phone or computer. Make sure they do not think they are doing something illegal.

DO make an effort to shoot a variety of handguns before you buy. Since you are under 21, you generally can't rent handguns but you should have no problems accompanying a legal purchaser and shooting any guns they rent. Also, look out for folks who might be happy to let you shoot their guns at the range. A .22 LR rifle is nice for this, since you can shoot it anywhere you can shoot a pistol.

YOU MAY want to arrange a nice gift for someone who seems like they would be willing to gift or trade you a handgun. Doesn't hurt, right?

 

As for which handgun to pick, this choice is very personal. I shoot Glocks well, and most people do, so that's my default for you. Glock 19 or 17. I estimate there is an 80% chance it will work well for you. If not, you can sell it later for close to full value. If you are a part of that 20% of the population who just really does not agree with Glocks, I would give the well respected competing brands (S&W, SIG, CZ, etc, not Springfield) a try and see which one shoots best for you. "Feel" of the handgun can be related to your performance with them, but isn't necessarily. For example, the most comfortable handgun for me is the Browning Hi Power, yet I shoot Glocks better.

 

The biggest mistake in my humble opinion that a first-time handgun shooter can make is saying "hey, I'll buy a full-size or compact (G19) handgun and it'll be both my IDPA/training gun, and when I'm 21 it'll be my CCW too!" No. Do not do this. Yes, people can and have concealed full size guns every day. They are not you. You've never concealed a handgun before. You want the smallest, most concealable gun you can get that still offers good shootability and lethality (that would be a Glock 43 btw, plus maybe the SIG P365 in a couple years once it's debugged). Right now, I would just pick a good gun to build fundamentals on, and worry about what you want to carry when you get closer to getting your license. If after a year or two of actually carrying that smaller gun, you want to go up to a Desert Eagle or whatever, be my guess. But practice carrying with something that's less of a pain in the ass, first.

 

I would also keep an eye out for anything friends or relatives have that might be a good range gun, even if it's not exactly what you want. Remember, guns usually hold their value so if you don't end up liking it, you can sell it and usually lose less than the cost of renting it.

 

For your starter AR-15, there are a lot of good options. The baseline gun people are usually going to tell you to get is the Colt 6920. This gun offers basically zero nice features (like trigger, free float rail, etc) but it is mechanically still one of the best guns you can buy and makes an excellent host for upgrades. Many other guns below the $1000 mark today offer rail systems, triggers, midlength gas, and other upgrades, but in my case there aren't many of those packages that I really like as a whole, and chances are very good their quality won't be quite as high as the 6920. That's not to say the 6920 is the best rifle out there, but in terms of QC it has been the gun to beat for a while now. With a Colt OEM2, you get the rifle and none of the stuff that goes on it, too, and you are left with roughly $250 of your budget to slap on stocks, rails, etc. Even if it doesn't have all the modern creature comforts (it has a carbine gas system and the notorious GI trigger), it's hard to do better than taking one of those and decking it out the way you like. I've owned a 6920 for 8 years, and it's had close to 10,000 rounds through it. Nothing has broken. Everything still works as it should. The original upper still shoots 2 minute with quality ammo. The 6920 isn't good enough anymore that if you get anything else there'll be a riot, but if you do get one, nobody will question it either. And you'll be satisfied, I think.

[Ramlaen]

I would suggest that whatever firearm you end up buying, don't feel obligated to drop a wad of cash on gucci aftermarket parts right away. You are better off buying a brick of plinker ammo and shooting it alot to become proficient/confident in yourself of its use.

[That’s Suspicious]

Thank you for the in-depth answer Sturgeon. I just recently heard about this and wondered about it for some time. Owning a handgun I feel is especially necessary for where I live due to the pretty bad criminal activity that goes on. I do own a shotgun I purchased but if I ever had to use it at home which is a situation I do feel could very well happen, it won’t be convenient and could hamper me actually dealing with the situation. I’ve actually had multiple instances in the past few months where I’ve been threatened and chased and almost attacked by random people in public and something like this if I can legally defend myself would be extremely beneficial Incase the situation arises.

 

I’ve actually shot quite a few handguns including a lot of Glocks like a 17, 19, 22, 23, etc, some CZ’s, S&W, and some Ruger’s. However as you pointed out I’ve never CCW’d before obviously so I don’t know how it would work out for me. It sounds ridiculous but even though I don’t have a problem with Glocks, I do like them and how they shoot and feel, I don’t really want one because of aesthetic reasons. As retarded as that sounds. I’ve shot the S&W 2.0 and I did quite enjoy that along with a CZ of which I can’t remember the name (it was some compact model) and they were both really nice. Are there any specific handguns you’ve shot that you can recommend? If I can’t really find anything other than a Glock then I’ll of course get it because I know it’ll work no matter what but I do wish to avoid it for the reasons I stated.

 

As for AR’s, have you had experience with the Bushmaster XM-15 or the Delton Armory AR’s I’ve shot the latter once before and it seemed like a decent rifle however I’ve not done anything other than fire a full magazine through one. The Bushmaster is one I’m looking at because it’s within my price range and from what I remember of Bushmaster it should be of good quality? I’ve also looked at the River AR-556 and the M&P 15 which I’ve also seen cheap enough for me afford. 

 

I’m actually going to join the police academy next year for my city and try to become a police officer so I’m wanting to broaden my experience a little bit due to the nature of that job and where it’ll be located at.

[Sturgeon]

3 minutes ago, Conner Webb said:

I don’t have a problem with Glocks, I do like them and how they shoot and feel, I don’t really want one because of aesthetic reasons

 

Yeah I didn't either. You'll get over it, trust me.

 

4 minutes ago, Conner Webb said:

Are there any specific handguns you’ve shot that you can recommend? If I can’t really find anything other than a Glock then I’ll of course get it because I know it’ll work no matter what but I do wish to avoid it for the reasons I stated.

 

I thought I already made a few recommendations. I've shot a lot of different handguns. I'd stick with the mainstream striker-fired guns, the best of those being the various Glocks and the M&Ps.

 

6 minutes ago, Conner Webb said:

As for AR’s, have you had experience with the Bushmaster XM-15 or the Delton Armory AR’s I’ve shot the latter once before and it seemed like a decent rifle however I’ve not done anything other than fire a full magazine through one.

 

Yes I have some experience with them and would not recommend spending your money on either. It's a roll of the dice. Bushmaster mostly made its name through being referenced in CNN articles about school shootings. They aren't the best choice.

 

7 minutes ago, Conner Webb said:

I’ve also looked at the River AR-556 and the M&P 15 which I’ve also seen cheap enough for me afford.

 

Of everything you mentioned the M&P 15 Sport II is the best, but the Colt 6920 is better yet.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

If it doesn't start with a "4" it's for women or commies. 

 

Best to buy one gun that you can use for  carry and home defense.

 

But always have a spare gun of the same type for extra parts. One is none, two is one.

 

Based on this, a KRISS vector in .45 Almighty Caliber Proper is probably your best bet. Buy two, one with a brace and one as a pistol so you can carry it easy. 

 

I suggest a chest holster. 

[OnlySlightlyCrazy]

11 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

I'd stick with the mainstream striker-fired guns, the best of those being the various Glocks and the M&Ps.

 

A big part of the reason why this advice is so valuable is that mainstream = cheap and easy accessories. No, you don't need to rice your handgun out at first, but having access to the best holsters, cheap and good magazines (as opposed to cheap or good), and easily accessed spares for if/when things breaks is reassuring.

 

 

11 hours ago, Sturgeon said:

Of everything you mentioned the M&P 15 Sport II is the best, but the Colt 6920 is better yet.

Agreed, but I would like to add something. As I'm sure Sturgeon can attest (having held everything from the first to the latest AR-15s), the AR is delightful in large part because of it's modularity. Although it won't be an issue for you within the first, say, 1-2 years of owning and shooting an AR-15 (possibly more!) the dated components of a Colt 6920 are primarily in the upper receiver group, which is not legally a firearm. It is thus entirely possible to keep your existing AR-15 and buy or build a new, hyper-modern, whiz-bang upper receiver and install it on your rifle merely by popping a few pins. There is a lot of upward growth potential in a rack-grade 6920 when you're ready to do so.

[Sturgeon]

13 minutes ago, OnlySlightlyCrazy said:

A big part of the reason why this advice is so valuable is that mainstream = cheap and easy accessories. No, you don't need to rice your handgun out at first, but having access to the best holsters, cheap and good magazines (as opposed to cheap or good), and easily accessed spares for if/when things breaks is reassuring.

 

 

Agreed, but I would like to add something. As I'm sure Sturgeon can attest (having held everything from the first to the latest AR-15s), the AR is delightful in large part because of it's modularity. Although it won't be an issue for you within the first, say, 1-2 years of owning and shooting an AR-15 (possibly more!) the dated components of a Colt 6920 are primarily in the upper receiver group, which is not legally a firearm. It is thus entirely possible to keep your existing AR-15 and buy or build a new, hyper-modern, whiz-bang upper receiver and install it on your rifle merely by popping a few pins. There is a lot of upward growth potential in a rack-grade 6920 when you're ready to do so.

 

Yes I have three uppers for my 6920 now. The lowers last practically for forever.

[OnlySlightlyCrazy]

Man transformation Thursday Monday is wild as as all hell.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

My vote is for 1911. It's been around this long, it has to be doing something right.

[That’s Suspicious]

13 hours ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

My vote is for 1911. It's been around this long, it has to be doing something right.

I think I’ll pass on that suggestion.

[Meplat]

17 hours ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

My vote is for 1911. It's been around this long, it has to be doing something right.

Not a beginner's piece.  Too easy to get burned/frustrated with one "as your first".

Lots of the low priced ones are iffy about QC, some of the high dollar ones can be pretty bad as well, and overall they need a bit more "logistical support" than some more modern offerings.

Mags for example. LOTS of really really shitty 1911 mags floating around out there.

 

4 hours ago, Conner Webb said:

I think I’ll pass on that suggestion.

As your first, yes.

Once you get a bit more familiar with handguns, they are tough to beat.

But they are not something you slap training wheels and a bright orange flag on, and toodle down to the range with, as "babby's first pistola".

 

[Sturgeon]

@Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect was literally just trolling me.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

It's true. 

 

I live to upset @Sturgeon.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

7 hours ago, Conner Webb said:

I think I’ll pass on that suggestion.

Here's the thing.

 

I think about what I would have changed about my life all the time. What would I do differently if I had a chance? Woke up one morning and it was 2005. You see? Scenarios play out before me. 

 

Should I have taken a different route?

 

Told her how I really felt?

 

Stopped him from taking the shot? 

 

Stolen those keys?

 

But what really keeps me up are all the gun choices I made. I chose a lot of stupid guns and I had way too many by the time I was 21. 

 

If I were to do it again, I could have easily gotten by with the following.

 

A 9mm Glock (19 probably).

A decent AR.

A milsurp bolt action for cheap thrills.

Pump action shotgun (for the meme)

 

That's it. 

 

And I had way more than that. Just ask @Sturgeon.

 

My first center-fire pistol was a Smith and Wesson 625. Literally the worst of both worlds.

[Meplat]

8 hours ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

Here's the thing.

 

I think about what I would have changed about my life all the time. What would I do differently if I had a chance? Woke up one morning and it was 2005. You see? Scenarios play out before me. 

 

Should I have taken a different route?

 

Told her how I really felt?

 

Stopped him from taking the shot? 

 

Stolen those keys?

 

But what really keeps me up are all the gun choices I made. I chose a lot of stupid guns and I had way too many by the time I was 21. 

 

If I were to do it again, I could have easily gotten by with the following.

 

A 9mm Glock (19 probably).

A decent AR.

A milsurp bolt action for cheap thrills.

Pump action shotgun (for the meme)

 

That's it. 

 

And I had way more than that. Just ask @Sturgeon.

 

My first center-fire pistol was a Smith and Wesson 625. Literally the worst of both worlds.

Never ever sell a first gen G17, in the hopes that a G17L will come into the shop. 

You will end up with a Pre B CZ-75 longframe.

 

Never pass up an inexpensive early Bushmaster SP-1 clone, as you will end up with a 1 of 2000 R6700CH, that , while stupidly accurate, weighs as much as your Garand, and cost three times as much as the Shrub.

 

Never build "the perfect" 870, as you will sell it , thinking "I can build another". Eventually the world runs out of good, old, sub $200.00 870's to build on.

 

Never buy an Enfield. Let alone a No4Mk1*, as it will get you into handloading, then black power cartridges, then collecting odd British Militaria, then odd CANADIAN militaria , followed by collecting Japanese then French.

A Lee-Enfield will also spoil you on bolt-actions. A Krag comes close.  Maybe a Winchester 54.

Everything else will be "clunky".

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

@Meplat the only gun I regret selling is my Ishapore .308 enfield. Picked it up for 100 bucks. Sold it for 100 bucks. 

[Meplat]

2 minutes ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

@Meplat the only gun I regret selling is my Ishapore .308 enfield. Picked it up for 100 bucks. Sold it for 100 bucks. 

Well, a lot of the early imports of the Ishapores were abject garbage.

I dealt with at least eight that were basically force-matched junk.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

Just now, Meplat said:

Well, a lot of the early imports of the Ishapores were abject garbage.

I dealt with at least eight that were basically force-matched junk.

 

The one I had was decent. Good bore. fed great. Decently accurate. Kind of a unicorn.

[Meplat]

1 minute ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

 

The one I had was decent. Good bore. fed great. Decently accurate. Kind of a unicorn.

And..You sold it?

 

W.what. Were you HIGH!? I managed to get one of the junkers to feed from a 30 round L4 magazine....

Why!?

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

3 minutes ago, Meplat said:

And..You sold it?

 

W.what. Were you HIGH!? I managed to get one of the junkers to feed from a 30 round L4 magazine....

Why!?

 

I told you it's the only gun I regret selling!

[Meplat]

2 minutes ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

 

I told you it's the only gun I regret selling!

You only regret not selling it to MEEEEEEEEEE!

 

FFS, I wanted to make an "Air Service Rifle" from one of those with a L4 LMG mag.. But most of the ones I came across were just shit. 

 

(And by "shit" , I mean "Would not feed a single round, were grossly out of headspace, would reliably unlock the bolt upon firing, or could not hit a flock of barns from inside one of them..)