The M4 Sherman Tank Epic Information Thread.. (work in progress)

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Shit, yeah that post is all messed up. I'll fix it tonight.

[EnsignExpendable]

You also mention a "T-34-86", and at least one of the photos has the wrong aspect ratio.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Jeep and others, do any of you happen to have a copy of 'Army Regulations No. 615-26' (AR 615-26), War Department September 15, 1942'?

 

I'm trying to find an authoritative source for the early Sherman MOS codes for some research I'm doing, but have had no luck.

 

I haven't run into anything really, but I'll poke through all the TM and FMs I havn't put on the site and see if I can dig anything up. 

[Collimatrix]

Easily the strangest combat use of a Sherman chassis I've heard of, this is the IDF's Kilshon:

 

 

The Kilshon (trident) consists of an M51 Sherman hull with the turret pulled off and replaced with a launch rail for an AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missile with an additional booster strapped to the back.  The AGM-45 is designed to home in on the radar emissions of surface-to-air missile batteries, and is typically fired from an aircraft.  Kilshon was developed as a way to defeat SAM batteries from the ground, as using aircraft to do the job had at times been costly.

[Meplat]

Easily the strangest combat use of a Sherman chassis I've heard of, this is the IDF's Kilshon:

 

 

The Kilshon (trident) consists of an M51 Sherman hull with the turret pulled off and replaced with a launch rail for an AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missile with an additional booster strapped to the back.  The AGM-45 is designed to home in on the radar emissions of surface-to-air missile batteries, and is typically fired from an aircraft.  Kilshon was developed as a way to defeat SAM batteries from the ground, as using aircraft to do the job had at times been costly.

"Wild Weasel" only works if you have the birds to assign and crew to train. The Israelis had little of either.

 

I'm also betting the average Arab operator was a lot more prone to leave the search/scan mode on while grabbing a cup of coffee as opposed to the average NVA operator who'd been told "TURN THAT SHIT OFF THE INSTANT YOU GET HEAVY RETURN SCATTER".

[Meplat]

Jeep and others, do any of you happen to have a copy of 'Army Regulations No. 615-26' (AR 615-26), War Department September 15, 1942'?

 

I'm trying to find an authoritative source for the early Sherman MOS codes for some research I'm doing, but have had no luck.

I might have a PDF, barring that I have a friend in Arizona who reproduces manuals.

 

Why are you wanting that manual in particular?

[renhanxue]

Working on that Swedish impressions of the Sherman article, and I figured I might as well ask you guys about a few terms etc.

The track assembly has stood up well to all stresses it has been subjected to. It has not been necessary to replace any road wheels or track links. However, the wedges that lock the track pins in place have shown a tendency to loosen and fall off, which is caused by the nuts eventually screwing themselves loose. Even when such wedges have fallen off, neither the track pins nor the guide horns have shown any tendency to move. If a split washer was added under the nut and the nut then tightened hard, the wedge remained where it should.

Am I using the correct terminology here? Any corrections welcome.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Working on that Swedish impressions of the Sherman article, and I figured I might as well ask you guys about a few terms etc.

Am I using the correct terminology here? Any corrections welcome.

Sounds good to me.

 

One of the daily chores, often done every time the tank stopped for any reason, was to tighten the wedge nuts on the tracks. The Driver and co driver would be out there rain, snow or dry tightening the wedges on each run each run. 

 

Relevant picture. 

[renhanxue]

Thanks! Suddenly I understand what they were talking about with the wedges.

Here's the full report. Let me know if I messed up something in the translation.

[FilthyCasual]

I might have a PDF, barring that I have a friend in Arizona who reproduces manuals.

 

Why are you wanting that manual in particular?

 

A relative of mine was a Sherman tanker killed in Cologne, there's some famous footage of his tank commander bailing out with a severed leg and the Panther that had hit them being taken out by a Pershing. Little over a year ago a German historian put out a book and documentary about the battle and specifically about those in the combat footage. It had been my understanding that Julian (my relative) was the driver but the morning reports shown in the documentary list his MOS as 616 (gunner) among other evidence that crew members may have been out of position. I just can't find any source material that lists these older MOS codes, which I'm told would be AR 615-26.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Thanks! Suddenly I understand what they were talking about with the wedges.

Here's the full report. Let me know if I messed up something in the translation.

 

Very nice. 

 

See below for some feedback/questions/corrections  

 

In 1946 and 1947, the Swedish army purchased a total of four surplus Shermans (first one M4A2 and one M4A4 without weapons, then a Firefly with the Continental radial engine and one M4A4 with the 10,5 cm howitzer) from the Brits, mainly to gain experience with foreign tank designs. A few attempts were made to purchase another 50 as surplus (they were very cheap, less than a thousand pounds each – you could get something like 50 modern, fully functional Shermans for the price of a single new build strv m/42), but this deal fell through because of difficulties with finding enough spare parts.

 

There were no M4A4s factory produced with a 105.  The Sherman was only produced in two models with the 105 gun howitzer, the M4 105 and M4A3 105, all produced at the CDA factory.  These tanks all had updated large hatch hulls, the only welded M4 tanks produced that way.  Now this doesn't mean it isn't possible an M4 105 turret got put on an M4A4 hull. 

 

All the pictures of the 105 tank seem to be a standard M4 105 though, you can its large drivers and co drivers hatches, and all around vision cupola in this image. 

 

In this section :  

 

The track assembly has stood up well to all stresses it has been subjected to. It has not been necessary to replace any road wheels or track links. However, the wedges that lock the track pins in place have shown a tendency to loosen and fall off, which is caused by the nuts eventually screwing themselves loose. Even when such wedges have fallen off, neither the track pins nor the guide horns have shown any tendency to move. If a split washer was added under the nut and the nut then tightened hard, the wedge remained where it should.

 

I think this probably indicates they got the tanks with no manuals since tighten the wedge nuts is covered in the daily maintenance on the tank. it's interesting the track never came apart due to this, but I wonder if the Sherman V's tendency to lose tracks when it slid off road was aggravated by this?   Very interesting stuff though.  

 

On icy and slippery surfaces the tracks on the Sherman V, which have U-shaped gripping surfaces, have shown to be unsuitable. On many occasions the Sherman V therefore happened to slip off the road, and on three such occasions one of the tracks was thrown. In one case, the tank could be driven directly back on to the track, but in the other two the track had to be removed completely and placed in front of the tank, which was then driven back on top of it. This repair required about two hours each time. The Sherman V also had problems climbing many steep slopes because of the tracks slipping. By using extra track links (TN: possibly for a different tank? the document is quite unclear here and has a few hard-to-read handwritten corrections), these slopes could be climbed, but this took considerable amounts of time. These extra track links, in sets of 3-5, were placed under the tracks with the guide horns facing down, and this provided extra grip.

 

In this section, I think what you describe as 'extra track links', might be called grousers. Each tank was issued a set, though, if they were black market or junkyard tanks, they may have been missing, but assuming that got them, they look like this. 

 

You can see them mounted on the hull side of the M10, the Sherman had special  compartment for them. 

 

 This image has extra wide grousers, the normal ones do not have the big flat panel sticking out. They seem to have been very unpopular in actual use, since finding an image of them on a tank is a pain. I have one somewhere!

 

During the drive from Askersund to Skövde on March 2nd (TN: after the end of the exercises), the Sherman V happened to skid off the road in a curve and at low speed drove into a cliff face with the left drive wheel. The wheel was crushed and had to be replaced with one from the Sherman that was not participating in the exercises. After the repairs, the tank continued towards Skövde. About 1 km west of Mölltorp, the tank again skid off the road when going downhill, and threw one of its tracks. After pulling the tank back onto the road and re-mounting the track, the tank continued to Skövde without difficulties, since the road after that point was ice-free.

 

One comment here, these are normally called drive sprockets or sprockets. 

 

On all occasions where the situation demanded it – for example in the case of blown bridges, taking cover for air raids, supporting infantry, etc – the platoon moved in terrain with no difficulty. Despite the ground being poorly frozen, the tanks showed no tendency to dig down. On three occasions, streams between 2 and 5 meters wide were crossed. On one occasion, during the crossing of Igelbäcken, Sherman III got stuck, in part because the track spikes were not mounted and in part because of a misjudgement by the driver. When the next tank had passed, the Sherman III was towed up by it.

 

Track spikes may also be a reference to grousers?

 

The tanks are spacious, both in the driver’s position and in the turret. Thanks to this, all activities are made easier, both when driving and when handling the tank in general. The heat from the steering gear and transmission makes it pretty easy for the driver to stay warm. Personnel standing in the turret, however, is greatly bothered by the air flow through the turret hatches which is caused by the powerful suction of the fan.

 

This section is interesting, the complaint about air being pulled through the turret is pretty common either engine intake air or cooling air was pulled through the fighting compartment. 

 

I love how this just reinforces the already great record of reliability of the Sherman tank. Even the most complicated motor, in inexperienced hands proved to be reliable! 

 

Now some comments on the images. 

 

This is a Sherman Vc, Firefly. You can just make out the added loaders hatch in the turret in the open position, and the 17 pounder clearly mark it a Firefly, and the huge wheel gaps between the bogie units means it can only be a M4A4.

 

 This is a very interesting shot of the M4 105, you can clearly make out the unique 105 mantlet, and large hatch hull. The drivers hatches are missing their periscopes, steel plugs seem to be in their place.  The rare drivers windscreen is mounted, but not the hood for it. 

 

This seems to be the M4 105 from the rear, you can see distinctive M4 air cleaners under the overhang of the rear hull. In this shot you can also see it has the T48 rubber chevron tracks.  

this is another shot of the M4 105, you can make out the welded in plug on the co drivers hatch. 

 

Final shot of the same M4 105. 

 

[DogDodger]

In this section, I think what you describe as 'extra track links', might be called grousers.

I originally had the same thought, but the way the report describes them being mounted "in sets of 3-5...under the tracks with the guide horns facing down" made me reconsider. That supplementary description does sound like they somehow attached small groups of track links upside-down so that the guides could bite into the ice? Very neat report.

[renhanxue]

Thanks for the feedback, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks!

Your remark about the 105 being a M4 is interesting, because I know Swedes were pretty good at misidentifying what Shermans they actually had. In one report they refer to a Firefly in a junkyard as a M4A1, but as far as I know no Firefly conversions were made from the M4A1, only from the M4 and M4A4. In this case it would seem that the tank they call a "Sherman II" is actually a Sherman IB or M4 105. Maybe they just didn't think the M4 "A0" was a thing. I think the reason there's no photos of the Sherman III is that it didn't have any main gun and didn't look as good. The Sherman V is definitely the Firefly and that same vehicle is in the Arsenalen museum today (the Chieftain recorded a video on it yesterday that I imagine will be popping up on YouTube eventually).

Regarding the track links/grousers debate: when they talk about placing extra track links in front of the track, it's definitely not grousers they're talking about. Here is the Swedish original text for reference. The text literally says "By the use of (the word "special" added in pencil here) track links m/41 (m/41 crossed out and something unreadable added in pencil) the slopes could be negotiated". The word used is "bandplattor", which just means track links, and when they talk about the guide horns facing down the word used is "bandtungor" which is also unambiguous. The issue here is the "bandplattor m/41" designation which indicates that these were already in the inventory and used for some other tank, but it might also be a red herring since m/41 is crossed out. Really not sure on this one.

Track spikes is easier, the word used is "brodd" (singular) or "broddar" (plural). It literally means "spike" or "stud", with the added implication that this is a spike you use in winter to get better grip (old people have them under their shoes in winter, sometimes). They were standard equipment on all Swedish tanks. Here's a track link for an ikv 103, with the spikes present (labeled as "konbrodd" - conical spike):

You punch these through the holes in the the track link - how many per link and on how many links depends on the tank. On the strv 74 it's two spikes on every 10th link, on the sav m/43 one spike every 4th link, on the ikv 103 two spikes every 10th link or "in particularly difficult conditions" every 7th link. The manual says that they should generally only be mounted when driving on iced-over roads; they're generally not used in snow or in terrain except if the track links are very worn, in which case it might be necessary to spike the tracks even on snowy roads.

[EnsignExpendable]

I originally had the same thought, but the way the report describes them being mounted "in sets of 3-5...under the tracks with the guide horns facing down" made me reconsider. That supplementary description does sound like they somehow attached small groups of track links upside-down so that the guides could bite into the ice? Very neat report.

 

Yeah, the wording made me think that they straight up welded track links to the tracks as opposed to developing grousers.

[renhanxue]

I don't think they were fastened permanently, but how exactly they got them to stick to the tracks is unclear. The strv 74 has a device called a "track anchor", which I believe works according to roughly the same principle:

Place it under the track, it digs down and you pull yourself up. When it appears on the rear end of the tank, pick it up and place it in front again.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

My only problem with them adoing extra blocks would be the Sherman track blocks are big enough they could have a clearance problem hitting the bottom of the sponsons.

But maybe they used a thinner non Sherman track pad?

[renhanxue]

What do you mean, blocks? Again, for the extra track links thing I think they just placed them under the track, drove over them and picked them up at the rear of the tank when it had passed over them. That's why it took so much time.

[EnsignExpendable]

My only problem with them adoing extra blocks would be the Sherman track blocks are big enough they could have a clearance problem hitting the bottom of the sponsons.

But maybe they used a thinner non Sherman track pad?

 

They obviously used Tamiya Shermans where the sponson floors are missing

[EnsignExpendable]

The Germans apparently only care about the Sherman out of the list of Lend Lease vehicles.

 

[Belesarius]

 

73 years ago yesterday

 

"On their drive towards Naples, the crew of ‘Sheik’, a Sherman Mk.III (M4A2) belonging to 'A' Squadron of the Royal Scots Greys (2nd Dragoons), stop to watch water vapour coming out of Mount Vesuvius, Italy. 29 September 1943."

[renhanxue]

Working on another Sherman report, and I'm back for some more terminology help - this time it's about the turret traverse.

Manual traverse is easy to handle because of the powerful gear ratio - 1/4 turn in 28 seconds (strv m/42 23 seconds). Power traverse by wheel turning (TN: no idea what is intended here, literal translation again) - 1/4 turn in 6 seconds, full rotation in 26 seconds. Power traverse with the control set at full power - 1/4 turn 4 seconds, full rotation 19 seconds (strv m/42 1/4 turn 7,5 seconds, full rotation 24 seconds).

The tank commander can power traverse the turret at full speed from his position in the cupola. The turret traverse braking is very effective - as soon as the traverse wheel stops turning, the turret also stops immediately. When power traversing, the turret automatically returns to the position it had when the wheel stopped turning. On the M4A2, the handle on the traverse wheel has a latch, which is pressed when traversing. When this latch is released, the turret is braked.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

What do you mean, blocks? Again, for the extra track links thing I think they just placed them under the track, drove over them and picked them up at the rear of the tank when it had passed over them. That's why it took so much time.

 

 

Hmmm I didn't think of just laying the blocks down... 

 

This image has various types of Sherman track links or blocks in pairs, they pretty much mean the same thing. 

[Meplat]

Working on another Sherman report, and I'm back for some more terminology help - this time it's about the turret traverse.

 

The power traverse systems used by U.S. armor had a grip, that when turned left or right would slew the turret.  Both the Logansport and Oilgear systems were very compact and reliable. Compared to what the Axis were using, they were basically space aged.

 

They also had a manual traverse wheel, near the power traverse control. This had two gear ratios.  It reads like they are manually traversing in high ratio, then comparing that to power traverse.

[renhanxue]

Hm. It literally says "Traversing the turret with electrical power and turning the wheel", and in the second case "With electrical power and the control handle set to full speed". Weird. Does it sound plausible to manual traverse the turret a quarter turn in 6 seconds? What is the electrical power referring to in the first case?

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Hm. It literally says "Traversing the turret with electrical power and turning the wheel", and in the second case "With electrical power and the control handle set to full speed". Weird. Does it sound plausible to manual traverse the turret a quarter turn in 6 seconds? What is the electrical power referring to in the first case?

 

There were three power traverse systems two used the twisting pistol grip as Meplat says, one uses a wheel you rotate.  I believe the one with the wheel is westinghouse, and it was all electric, and only installed when the Oilgear or Logansport systems were in short supply. 

 

 

 

 

http://www.theshermantank.com/sherman/turrets-the-are-the-combat-power-of-the-tank/

 

This is the oil gear system, the big wheel is the elevation wheel.  The tilt pistol grip is just being cut off on the middle right of the image.