The M4 Sherman Tank Epic Information Thread.. (work in progress)

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

45 minutes ago, EnsignExpendable said:

Another question, probably not about the Sherman specifically, what is mpq? I have some documents on Sherman trials, the M4E1 gave .77 mpg and 3.8 mpq in cross country trials when running on diesel fuel, for instance. 

 

Edit: never mind, I figured it out, it's oil consumption. Naturally it's measured with a different unit than fuel. 

 

Yeah the R975 had pretty high oil consumption, but none of the others did. It was the nature of the beast, the R975 being an aircraft radial. 

[Meplat]

3 hours ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

 

Yeah the R975 had pretty high oil consumption, but none of the others did. It was the nature of the beast, the R975 being an aircraft radial. 

Yes and no..  Engines of that time were (overall) pretty thirsty.  Examples like the GAA were exceptions.  it was not uncommon to have attachments to one's car that metered oil to lubricate the valves.

So, for a radial aircraft engine forced into ground service, the 975 performed superbly. Oil consumption was not it's major issue. (I'd put hydrolock and plug fouling ahead).

 

[EnsignExpendable]

 

Very interesting Sherman. The hull MG is welded up like on the Firefly, but it's not a Firefly! Converted back after the war, maybe?

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

12 hours ago, EnsignExpendable said:

 

Very interesting Sherman. The hull MG is welded up like on the Firefly, but it's not a Firefly! Converted back after the war, maybe?

 

 

Yeah, looks like an IC composite, you can still see the radio box and the square loaders hatch. 

[Walter_Sobchak]

13 hours ago, EnsignExpendable said:

 

Very interesting Sherman. The hull MG is welded up like on the Firefly, but it's not a Firefly! Converted back after the war, maybe?

 

Is there another picture of the front of the turret?  How do you know it's not a Firefly?  What country are those uniforms?

[Scolopax]

Google search brings up that it's Argentine, and is in fact a Firefly.  Image dated 1962.

[EnsignExpendable]

I thought it looked like a regular British stowage box at first, but upon closer inspection it is, in fact, a Firefly radio box.

[EnsignExpendable]

Got to see two Canadian M4A2E8s in action over the weekend.

 

 

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Sweet!

 

 

[EnsignExpendable]

For only $350 you can ride in one! That's Canadian dollars, so probably like five bucks for you guys.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Sherman tanks (unidentified model) purchased through public donations, showcased to the public that bought them. Year 1955 I believe.

 

 

 

Also a poster calling civilians to donate:

Spoiler

 

 

[Walter_Sobchak]

Interesting picture for sale on Ebay.  This is supposed to be Italy 1944.  The Sherman tank in the background still has the old style suspension bogies with the return roller directly on top instead set to the back.

 

 

My guess would be 1st Armored Division.  They were the first US armored unit to see action so they would have had some pretty early model M4 tanks, and they ended up in Italy after 1943.

[Walter_Sobchak]

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Sherman tanks (unidentified model) purchased through public donations, showcased to the public that bought them. Year 1955 I believe.

 

 

 

Also a poster calling civilians to donate:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

Looks like a small hatch M4 with a depot level upgrade post-war, since it has the all-around vision cupola, and they made it on few small hatch M4s during the war. The US was probably giving them out like door prizes in the 50s if you were on their good side. 

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

8 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

Interesting picture for sale on Ebay.  This is supposed to be Italy 1944.  The Sherman tank in the background still has the old style suspension bogies with the return roller directly on top instead set to the back.

 

 

Some of those early M4A1s note it has the M34 gun mount but is not a DV tank, made it all the way to the end of the war in the MTO. A few in the ETO too on the tank companies that transferred.  

I don't think the MTO tanks got priority on the upgrades. 

4 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Often captioned, something stupid like, "all the Shermans destroyed on D-Day", but it's just a big wrecking yard in Normandy. 

[Walter_Sobchak]

2 minutes ago, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

 

 

Looks like a small hatch M4 with a depot level upgrade post-war, since it has the all-around vision cupola, and they made it on few small hatch M4s during the war. The US was probably giving them out like door prizes in the 50s if you were on their good side. 

 

Unfortunately for Israel in that period, they were not on our good side and their M4's usually came from third party sources.  

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Just now, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Unfortunately for Israel in that period, they were not on our good side and their M4's usually came from third party sources.  

 

 

Yeah, they even got some from junkyards like you posted in Europe, and then rebuilt them.   

[Walter_Sobchak]

Just now, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

 

 

Yeah, they even got some from junkyards like you posted in Europe, and then rebuilt them.   

 

I seem to recall reading that the very first M4 they had didn't have a gun, so they rearmed with a German or Italian artillery piece.  I'll have to look it up.  They also stole a Cromwell or two from the British with some inside help.

[EnsignExpendable]

On 6/25/2018 at 7:59 PM, Jeeps_Guns_Tanks said:

 

Some of those early M4A1s note it has the M34 gun mount but is not a DV tank, made it all the way to the end of the war in the MTO. A few in the ETO too on the tank companies that transferred.  

I don't think the MTO tanks got priority on the upgrades. 

 

Often captioned, something stupid like, "all the Shermans destroyed on D-Day", but it's just a big wrecking yard in Normandy. 

 

Yeah, I doubt they were sending out Renault R-35s to fight on D-Day.

[Walter_Sobchak]

On 6/27/2018 at 11:23 AM, EnsignExpendable said:

 

Yeah, I doubt they were sending out Renault R-35s to fight on D-Day.

I think one of the first Panzer or Panzer Grenadier Divisions encountered by the US in the Cotentin Peninsula was equipped with captured French armor.  It might have been the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier division, which was short of equipment and using old french crap.

 

Edit: On second thought, I think this is probably where those R-35 tanks came from:

 

Fourteen R 35 tanks, used to train tank drivers, equipped the 100. Panzer-Ersatz-Bataillon (100th Panzer Replacement Battalion) in the German Seventh Army in 1944. On 6 June 1944, they were among the first Armee-Reserveunits sent into combat near Sainte-Mère-Église to oppose the American airborne landings in Normandy. Supporting a counterattack by the 1057th Grenadier Regiment, R35s penetrated the command post of the U.S. 1st Battalion 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment before being destroyed by bazooka fire

[EnsignExpendable]

I found Jeeps.

 

 

[Collimatrix]

Did this get posted here?

[Gurth]

Hoping someone here knows: were British Sherman Vs delivered with or without appliqué armour on the hull sides? That is to say, would that have been applied in Britain, but with plates pre-painted in American olive drab that appears darker in b&w photos than the British SCC 15 olive drab that the rest of the tank would have been painted in?

[DogDodger]

Stansell and Laughling say, "At CDA [Chrysler Defense Arsenal], the glacis [applique] armor was first installed in early August 1943. The exact date of the introduction of the side plates is not known, but CDA's M4 composites starting [sic] getting theirs in late August 1943. It's safe to assume that they were installing them on the M4A4 line at the same time. It's also interesting to speculate that some M4A4s left the factory with front applique only." And later, "Once a vehicle was issued to troops--either stateside or overseas--it was rarely modified. Most, if not all, applique appears to have been installed by the factories or by the tank depots before issue or during a remanufacturing program." Chrysler rebuilt 1610 M4A4s destined for the British by October 1944, so it seems from their research that it might be rare for the applique armor kits to have been installed in Britain. On the other hand, if Chrysler started adding the applique armor in August 1943, over a year of M4A4 production had already elapsed, and 6173 M4A4s had been produced by the end of the second quarter of 1943, which would leave potentially 4563 tanks that were built before the applique armor was added to the factory line and which also didn't get run through the remanufacturing program. So bottom line: who knows?

[Gurth]

The question arose because I’m building a model of a specific British tank, and in most of the photos I have of it, it looks like the armour plates are darker than the rest of it. However, I’m now beginning to think that the tank is in American OD and wasn’t overpainted entirely by the British, since on close inspection, most or all the British additions (like the track stowage racks on the hull front) are darker than the rest of the tank, as is a patch of paint on the hull side which — if this theory is correct — could be a touch-up job with SCC 15.

 

Does this sound plausible or am I barking up the wrong tree completely?