The Actual Civil War Discussion Thread

[LostCosmonaut]

One that isn't intended to troll pubbies.

 

So, 150th anniversary of Appomattox Courthouse today. Discuss.

[xthetenth]

Greatest day in American history.

 

And I'm not exaggerating about how I feel in that other thread. The Confederacy as a nation existed to maintain slavery and subjugate the black race.

 

It's no surprise that slaveholding households were wildly overrepresented in the volunteers the Confederacy got in the first year.

[Sturgeon]

Surely VE Day and VJ Day heralded the end of far worse nations.

[xthetenth]

Surely VE Day and VJ Day heralded the end of far worse nations.

 

Yes they did. Thus American and not world history. Slavery was a black mark on the Constitution belying the very principles it claimed for the nation, and destroying it as a viable political construct made a positive impact on the shape of the succeeding 150 years.

[Sturgeon]

Yes they did. Thus American and not world history. Slavery was a black mark on the Constitution belying the very principles it claimed for the nation, and destroying it as a viable political construct made a positive impact on the shape of the succeeding 150 years.

 

That's a dramatic way to put it, I guess.

[Walter_Sobchak]

I'm with Xthetenth on this one.  The Civil War was more important than the American Revolution.  As long as slavery was part of the Constitution it was a pretty meaningless document.  

 

If you really want a dramatic way to put it, I would recommend reading what William LLoyd Garrison had to say about the Constitution.  

 

There is much declamation about the sacredness of the compact which was formed between the free and slave states, on the adoption of the Constitution. A sacred compact, forsooth! We pronounce it the most bloody and heaven-daring arrangement ever made by men for the continuance and protection of a system of the most atrocious villany ever exhibited on earth. Yes—we recognize the compact, but with feelings of shame and indignation, and it will be held in everlasting infamy by the friends of justice and humanity throughout the world. It was a compact formed at the sacrifice of the bodies and souls of millions of our race, for the sake of achieving a political object—an unblushing and monstrous coalition to do evil that good might come. Such a compact was, in the nature of things and according to the law of God, null and void from the beginning. No body of men ever had the right to guarantee the holding of human beings in bondage. Who or what were the framers of our government, that they should dare confirm and authorise such high-handed villany—such flagrant robbery of the inalienable rights of man—such a glaring violation of all the precepts and injunctions of the gospel—such a savage war upon a sixth part of our whole population?—They were men, like ourselves—as fallible, as sinful, as weak, as ourselves. By the infamous bargain which they made between themselves, they virtually dethroned the Most High God, and trampled beneath their feet their own solemn and heaven-attested Declaration, that all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights—among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They had no lawful power to bind themselves, or their posterity, for one hour—for one moment—by such an unholy alliance. It was not valid then—it is not valid now. Still they persisted in maintaining it—and still do their successors, the people of Massachussetts, of New-England, and of the twelve free States, persist in maintaining it. A sacred compact! A sacred compact! What, then, is wicked and ignominious?

 

[Sturgeon]

I'm with Xthetenth on this one.  The Civil War was more important than the American Revolution.

 

I think that is a very different statement, and one that may well be true. From a cultural perspective, our current nation may owe more of its characteristics to the Civil War than to the rebellion itself, yes.

[Donward]

Sadly. I don't have the time just at the moment to fully opine on this thread, which is a shame since the Civil War has always been more in my wheel house.

 

My main objections are viewing the incident and the causes leading up to it through the prism of modern politics. The second is assigning one-size-fits-all reasons for the war i.e "States Rights" or "Slavery". The conflict was complicated and multifaceted. When you have the brothers of the First Lady fighting on the side of the Rebels and Union Generals and an eventual Vice President coming from the South, things are complicated. Finally I object to the Confederacy being labeled as "Evil" and in the same vein as the Nazis which seems to be a fashionable thing to do these days with modern academics and media types resorting to this gimmick. The Confederacy and the Slavery were wrong. Very much so. We can go on at length about the ills of chattel slavery and the hypocrisy of Victorians and Christians in the South advocating for it. But equating them with Nazis seems more a tactic to discredit ones political opponents today who predominately come from a certain geographic region than honestly distilling the reasons for the war.

[Sturgeon]

Your thoughts echo mine, Don.

[Donward]

Of course the thing that really pisses me off is Libertarians and their ilk who try to paint Lincoln as a tyrant. I get a bit annoyed when I have to meet some smug Sovereign Citizen type with poor fashion choices who tries to spout off about Lincoln arresting eleventy jillion reporters and legislators.

[LostCosmonaut]

"Oh no, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus in the exact circumstances the constitution provided for. What a monster!"

[Priory_of_Sion]

Longstreet was the best confederate.

[Zinegata]

Sadly people keep forgetting about the period after the Civil War when America decided that British/European Imperialism and racism was cool.

[Khand-e]

Speaking of the topic, today is now also the 150th anniversary of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

[LostCosmonaut]

The intersection of the ACW and capitalism;

 

[Donward]

That is wonderfully gauche so Yankee. Modern advertising techniques are a lot older than most people suspect. Hell, the first Department stores were also created around the same period of time in the 19th Century.

 

Good thing we didn't have the ubiquitous Viagra commercials which are the only things keeping the American Heroes Channal afloat back during Reconstruction or else The South Will Rise Again would have taken on a whole other meaning.

 

(Yeah, I know that joke is probably as old as Reconstruction too).

[LostCosmonaut]

Started watching the Ken Burns Civil War series a few days ago, seems pretty good so far. Noticed a lot of commentary by Shelby Foote, is he generally well regarded as a historian?

[Sturgeon]

He wrote The Civil War: A Narrative.

[T___A]

"Oh no, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus in the exact circumstances the constitution provided for. What a monster!"

 

*Ignores the fact that Jefferson Davis suspended habeas corpus for the entire Confederacy*

 

Started watching the Ken Burns Civil War series a few days ago, seems pretty good so far. Noticed a lot of commentary by Shelby Foote, is he generally well regarded as a historian?

Very.

 

Has my favorite prose style of any historian. You can get a preview of it here.

[Donward]

Foote is pretty Skookum. A Southerner who is willing to look at both sides of the war.

The Burns documentary was groundbreaking at the time and put the film maker on the map. I've come to dislike him as a documentary maker and he's been coasting on the Civil War success for 25 years.

[Priory_of_Sion]

Couple questions

 

Did the Crimean War have any impact on strategy and tactics on the ACW?

 

Did the ACW have any impact of later European conflicts such as the the Franco-Prussian War? 

 

How much of an impact did the ACW effect Mexico and vice-versa. 

 

It seems that several European powers "picked sides" in the ACW. It seems the British and France marginally supported the CSA while Russia and Prussia marginally supported the Union. What was the extent of support?

[T___A]

McClellan was the official US observer during the Crimean War, I suspect this informed his unaggressive strategy when he was commander. Other than that I can't think of anything else the Crimean War affected.

[xthetenth]

Couple questions

 

Did the Crimean War have any impact on strategy and tactics on the ACW?

 

Did the ACW have any impact of later European conflicts such as the the Franco-Prussian War? 

 

How much of an impact did the ACW effect Mexico and vice-versa. 

 

It seems that several European powers "picked sides" in the ACW. It seems the British and France marginally supported the CSA while Russia and Prussia marginally supported the Union. What was the extent of support?

 

The Euros mostly wrote off the lessons of the ACW as being a bunch of amateurs playing at war.

 

The best though is what the US' glorious longest running ally did.

 

I'll let wiki cover what went down in Morocco because I hurt my hand and typing sucks.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco%E2%80%93United_States_relations#American_Civil_War

[T___A]

While everyone is quick to quote his Cornerstone speech I like this speech of his because of the eerie prescience of it:

[T___A]

Alexander H. Stephens on point again: