The Soviet Tank Thread: Transversely Mounted 1000hp Engines

[Scolopax]

From IDEX.  I haven't found anything official, but I've seen speculation of the below being a UAE re-armament of the BMP-3 for some variant.  To me though, it almost looks as though the gun tubes were removed for some reason or another, although I'm not certain on that (reference images in spoiler below).

 

 

 

 



 



 

[LoooSeR]

T-90M in TV report (screen from "teaser")

 

 

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201902210259-zmga.htm

[LoooSeR]

lol, didn't noticed that T-90M was shooting at T-64s. #Kharkovitestears

 

More of T-64s used as practice targets:

   pics stolen from Andrey's LJ.

 

[Karamazov]

1 hour ago, LoooSeR said:

#Kharkovitestears

In fact, most of the targets in Russia this is old T-64. They have not been used for a long time. No one needs and this solution is good.

[LoooSeR]

Zvezda full episode/show about T-90M will be aired on 24.02.

 

Internals:

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201902211720-chu3.htm

Commander's position:

Spoiler

 

 

   Hey, commander have enough space to place his pocket propagandists near his working station.

 

   Buttons above each viewport

   Commander can press a button above his viewport (8 viewports, 8 buttons are visible above them) to rotate his panoramic sight in direction

 

 

Turret from above:

Spoiler

 

 

   Heh.

 

Spoiler

 

Ainet in action (programmable 125 mm HE-Frag shell):

Spoiler

 

 

[LoooSeR]

Second batch of T-90s for Vietnam

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

 Love the idea of placing buttons near viewports!

[LoooSeR]

BTR-90 participating in Victory Parade

[alanch90]

Full episode of TV Zvezda on T-90M

 

This is what i understood from automatic subtitles and just watching:

- The tank is firing "Mango" APFSDS
- The turret is newly built (thats obvious from internal looks, much more comfortable), has air conditioning (in your face, Abrams!) . Although if this means different armor composition than previous T-90 or T-90A is unknown.
- Something about the engine-transmission. The engine is new as it was known but is the transmission of a new type too?
- Do they claim that the sideskirts have ERA built in (when most likely is the same crude "NERA" of steel-rubber-steel)? Or they say that referring to 4S24 of which there is footage?
- The RWS now mounts Kord 12.7mm
- They didn´t credit the israelis for the anti-rpg chains. Bad russians
-  Arena or simmilar APS can be mounted onto the tank without major modifications (?)

Thats it. If some kind russian-speaking soul can translate the whole episode or the most important information, would be greatly appreciated.
 

[LoooSeR]

39 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

- Do they claim that the sideskirts have ERA built in (when most likely is the same crude "NERA" of steel-rubber-steel)

   I'm really going to start sending people to Gulags for this. Those sideskirts are Relikt ERA modules (there are proofs that i posted on discort recently when this question was asked and i had to find a fucking state order wich directly said that those sideskrts are ERA). Where are you got an idea that those things are NOT ERA?

[alanch90]

33 minutes ago, LoooSeR said:

   I'm really going to start sending people to Gulags for this. Those sideskirts are Relikt ERA modules (there are proofs that i posted on discort recently when this question was asked and i had to find a fucking state order wich directly said that those sideskrts are ERA). Where are you got an idea that those things are NOT ERA?

It was my impression from a debate on this very thread many many pages ago. I guess that i missed the conclusion of that debate.

Could you share your sources so that i stop spreading false information please?

[LoooSeR]

43 minutes ago, alanch90 said:

It was my impression from a debate on this very thread many many pages ago. I guess that i missed the conclusion of that debate.

Could you share your sources so that i stop spreading false information please?

   On french military themed discord channel we were "discussing" T-72B3 mod.2016 sideskirts and i posted this:

http://zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/documents.html?lotId=4498123&purchaseId=3264240&purchaseMethodType=EP

State order for T-72B3 modification, it derectly says that side skirts have Relikt ERA. T-80BVM and T-90M have exactly the same skirts.

 

Also, T-90MS had exactly same sideskirts. Here is UVZ PR material that again states that it have ERA in them.

[LoooSeR]

From full episode of TV Zvezda's video on T-90M.

   Additional ERA in soft bags...........REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

   According to what was told on a show only 1 T-90M exist (now) and used for testing. Video shows T-90M in Nakidka (with visible desert camo under Nakidka) and green T-90M that was shown some time ago, so i suspect that slightly modified UVZ's T-90MS is used for testing as well (it have different weapon in RCWS compared to T-90MS shown years ago). 

 

   T-90M (probably T-90MS) with Nakidka:

Spoiler

 

 

  

   Nakidka covers APU with additional "pocket", but leaves upper plate of engine compartment uncovered.

 

 

   Main and secondary gunner's sights:

Spoiler

   Big one is main (thermal, television/day + rangefinder and laser for a laser beam riding GL-ATGMs). It appears that both sights have shutters openable remotely from inside of vehicle, instead of crappy 4 bolts armored cover for sight on T-72B3. Frontal Relikt ERA blocks are also visible, some sort of plate can be seen on back plate of lower row of frontal turret ERA.

 

 

   RCWS with KORD 12.7 mm HMGa nd some other equipment on top of turret roof:

Spoiler

   Laser sensors (with rubber plugs installed) is visible behind smoke grenade launchers, a 360 degrees 4 observation cameras set up is to the right from it, mounted on wind/atmoshpere conditions sensor, radio antenna near it.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

   BMP-2 with additional protection upgrade kit is visible, was tested but MoD still don't bothered to purchase it. Also, BMP-2 with Berezhok is also visible (on second pic).

 

 

   GL-ATGM launch and hit:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

   Fresh penetration right next to gun mount, probably they managed to hit turret gun mount weakspot, where armor is not the best (or near/on the edge of that weakspot).

 

 

   APFSDS hit (2 Mangos were used, near driver's weakspot)

Spoiler

 

 

 

   Second hit:

 

   Both Mangos landed near driver hatch and second one is probably on the edge of driver's weakspot on UFP. Funny to see that during shooting from ~1.4 km with Mango and GL-ATGM they were very close/on the edge or even managed to hit both "upper" frontal weakspot like Driver hatch cut out in UFP and gun mount in turret.

 

   

[LoooSeR]

[heretic88]

T-90M looks very promising, but it direly needs an APS! Also they should get rid of that idiotic GLATGM, unless they develop a top attack variant. But even in that case, it wouldnt help much, because APS is getting more and more widespread everywhere.

[alanch90]

1 hour ago, heretic88 said:

T-90M looks very promising, but it direly needs an APS! Also they should get rid of that idiotic GLATGM, unless they develop a top attack variant. But even in that case, it wouldnt help much, because APS is getting more and more widespread everywhere.

Current GLATGM suffers from the same disadvantages as most ATGM in service, in that sense first ones are not better or worse than the later. Overcoming APS will be the main feature in the next generation of ATGM. If those features can be added into the smaller GLATGM then the concept will be kept relevant for the future. 

[LoooSeR]

1 hour ago, heretic88 said:

T-90M looks very promising, but it direly needs an APS! Also they should get rid of that idiotic GLATGM, unless they develop a top attack variant. But even in that case, it wouldnt help much, because APS is getting more and more widespread everywhere.

   GL-ATGMs would be usefull, as our troops are more likely to face countries with Soviet-level of AFV tech. Place for "Arena-like" APS is there, T-90M can accept it, question is what MoD would like to do.

[Lord_James]

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

 

Thank you for this picture, it is both beautiful and awesome. 

[Mighty_Zuk]

30 minutes ago, LoooSeR said:

   GL-ATGMs would be usefull, as our troops are more likely to face countries with Soviet-level of AFV tech. Place for "Arena-like" APS is there, T-90M can accept it, question is what MoD would like to do.

The T-90M had its turret redesigned to a significant enough extent. I assume it can now use longer rounds such as the Vacuum-1 developed for the T-14, so I have no idea why they chose to fire the Mango. Perhaps to avoid showing the Vacuum-1 shells and to test backwards compatibility.

So if they'll be riding these things in Syria or other similar battlefields, the GLATGM with a range of only 5km and limited to LoS, will only extend their engagement range against MBTs by, what, 1km?

What really prevents them from firing a standard HEAT shell out to 5km away?

 

Pure corruption has controlled much of the acquisition programs in the Soviet and later Russian army. The usage of 3 different families of tanks with an abundance of variants for each, is a prime example. But the ATGM thing is also one.

They don't develop a 3rd or 4th gen ATGM not because they can't. If they can develop solid AAMs and cruise missiles they sure as hell can develop an ATGM as well. Just for some reason someone seems to have an interest in preventing development of such a missile. And the defense companies are state-owned after all, so they won't develop stuff as private ventures to pitch them to the army.

 

The use of a GLATGM is 90% stupidity, maybe 10% practicality. 

[Zadlo]

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

They don't develop a 3rd or 4th gen ATGM not because they can't.

 

So 9M133M is only an imagination? 

[Mighty_Zuk]

5 minutes ago, Zadlo said:

 

So 9M133M is only an imagination? 

It's a 2nd gen SACLOS missile.

Its "fire and forget" is not an actual F&F mode of the missile. It's just an auto-tracker fitted on the launcher that allows the gunner to do other things in the meantime. Upon launching, the vehicle (yeah, you can't have it for the foot soldiers) must either remain stationary, or maintain LoS to the target. Dropping (on foot) or driving away (on vehicle) to cover is not possible with the Kornet-EM.

A proper 3rd gen, thus F&F missile, would have the tracking technology fitted INSIDE the missile. And that is just the very bare minimum a "modern" ATGM must have.

[Mighty_Zuk]

From the video:

• Engine is more powerful (don't claim by how much).
• Turret construction is "unique", unlike the serially produced version (evident in photos).
• Gun is the same old 2A46M, but fitted with MRS (Muzzle Reference System).
• New laser warning system.
• 360 degree vision provided by a mast-mounted system located on the left side of the turret by the rear.
• Closed internet connection.
• Driver's rear-view camera.
• They still don't know how to build bore evacuators.
• Ammunition selection system (so they couldn't select the ammunition before that?).
• T-90M tanks will also be newly-built, not only conversions.
• Provisions for an APS.

[alanch90]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The T-90M had its turret redesigned to a significant enough extent. I assume it can now use longer rounds such as the Vacuum-1 developed for the T-14, so I have no idea why they chose to fire the Mango. Perhaps to avoid showing the Vacuum-1 shells and to test backwards compatibility.

 

It is my understanding that T-90M has its autoloader modified to fit the Svinets 1-2 (up to ~700mm length),  to handle Vacuum the autoloader would need to be able to handle 1 meter long objects and i doubt that something that large (and placed horizontally) can even fit in the turret ring, most likely is beyond the overall tank layout limits. There is a second issue which causes doubts of T-90M firing the Vacuum, and it is the latter propellant energy: Supposedly its using a higher powered propellant, beyond the limits of the design of D-81 guns (aka 2A46), that only 2A82 can handle.  So, in conclusion, if Vacuum could be able to physically fit in the T-90M autoloader, the tank´s gun would have been the 2A82 (because there are no reasons to mount that gun if the tank itself can´t carry the longer APFSDS after all). The fact that is using 2A46 point in other direction.
What has me most curious is the question of how relevant Svinets 1-2 are today and for how long, just as they are entering mass production the US is upgrading yet again the armor package on M1 with the SEPV3. Are those projectiles effective against that armor?  Who knows...

[LoooSeR]

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

so I have no idea why they chose to fire the Mango.

   They used stocks of avaliable ammunition to fire just for this show. We should be glad they used something real instead of some kind of training round.

 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

So if they'll be riding these things in Syria or other similar battlefields, the GLATGM with a range of only 5km and limited to LoS, will only extend their engagement range against MBTs by, what, 1km?

What really prevents them from firing a standard HEAT shell out to 5km away?

   So Russian army will fight and were fighting only in Syrias? Only against modern MBTs? Are you sure that HEAT rounds are as accurate at 4+ km as GL-ATGMs?

 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

They don't develop a 3rd or 4th gen ATGM

"They" are working on 4th gen ATGM, called VTRK.

 

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The use of a GLATGM is 90% stupidity, maybe 10% practicality. 

   Well, if we already have stocks of those things why not to use them? Especially if they can extend effective range against most probable types of tanks that our army may meet.

 

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

From the video:

/.../

• New laser warning system.

   Shtora is not exactly "new".

 

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

• 360 degree vision provided by a mast-mounted system located on the left side of the turret by the rear.

   Exactly same as on T-90MS from many years ago.

 

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

• Driver's rear-view camera.

   Nothing new here. Even T-72B1U for Nicaragua had them, it is kind of standart equipment now.

 

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

• Ammunition selection system (so they couldn't select the ammunition before that?).

   This is show for people with "housewife" level of knowledge of military tech. Sometimes it feels like you are posting while drunk, i'm too lazy to find again an old Soviet training video showing T-64A gunner's station and ammunition selection system.

 

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

• T-90M tanks will also be newly-built, not only conversions.

   Yes, original contract stated for this (article was posted in this thread), known information for many months by now.

[Mighty_Zuk]

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   They used stocks of avaliable ammunition to fire just for this show. We should be glad they used something real instead of some kind of training round.

 

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   So Russian army will fight and were fighting only in Syrias? Only against modern MBTs? Are you sure that HEAT rounds are as accurate at 4+ km as GL-ATGMs?

The reference threat for Russia should always be NATO, just as any military should use a peer threat as a reference point. But my point was not about Russia fighting in Syria constantly, or even in battlefields that are similar to Syria. For that it would pitch those upgrades for potential export customers, not for domestic consumption.

Against a peer threat, with a modern MBT, those missiles become even less effective. 

HEAT rounds should be accurate out to even more than 4km. Part of the training of a gunner in Israel includes the firing of a HE-MP shell out to 5km. If you can do it from a Merkava, I don't see why you can't do it with a T-90 with modernized sights. Pretty much anywhere, firing a HE-MP shell to 5km seems like a standard. 

A HEAT shell would ideally have better ballistic traits than a HE-MP.

 

Of course it won't be as accurate as an ATGM, but it's not like it's terribly inaccurate.

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

"They" are working on 4th gen ATGM, called VTRK.

Isn't VTRK very specifically NOT an ATGM? It's supposed to be a division level precision strike weapon like a glorified Spike NLOS, only out to 100km instead of 30km.

Due to the range, the Spike NLOS is no longer used as an ATGM, rather as a precision strike weapon with a general purpose warhead (Anti Personnel/Anti Material) against high value targets.

When I'm talking ATGMs, I mean something that you'd carry on your back in pieces, or on an AFV. 

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   Well, if we already have stocks of those things why not to use them? Especially if they can extend effective range against most probable types of tanks that our army may meet.

That makes sense, but missiles have a much shorter shelf life than tanks, and I'm afraid they'd produce new missiles of the same variant, or new SACLOS missiles, and that's just wrong.

 

 

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   Exactly same as on T-90MS from many years ago.

 

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   Nothing new here. Even T-72B1U for Nicaragua had them, it is kind of standart equipment now.

 

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   Yes, original contract stated for this (article was posted in this thread), known information for many months by now.

 

This post wasn't written for you. It was written for the less informed who wanted to watch the video but still understand something. I wrote everything I deemed note-worthy in points. Not everyone here can read and understand Russian like us.

 

3 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   This is show for people with "housewife" level of knowledge of military tech. Sometimes it feels like you are posting while drunk, i'm too lazy to find again an old Soviet training video showing T-64A gunner's station and ammunition selection system.

Of course I know they have an ammunition selection option. I've seen it. I was just mocking the way they said it.