The Soviet Tank Thread: Transversely Mounted 1000hp Engines

[LoooSeR]

11 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

The reference threat for Russia should always be NATO, just as any military should use a peer threat as a reference point. But my point was not about Russia fighting in Syria constantly, or even in battlefields that are similar to Syria. For that it would pitch those upgrades for potential export customers, not for domestic consumption.

Against a peer threat, with a modern MBT, those missiles become even less effective. 

/.../

   Yes, reference threat is modern MBTs, thats why 2A82 is in development/testing with new APFSDS and new APFSDS rounds for older guns are in production. Army is not as well equipped as it should be, but that is not a problem of GL-ATGMs, but MoD.

   Missile are usefull not only against MBTs. Not all MBTs we would face are ATGM-proof, have all kinds of APS, and as i said realistically we have much more reasons to worry about fighting with partially moded T-64 and T-72, which would not be a very hard target to crack for Invar/Relfex and similar.

 

11 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

HEAT rounds should be accurate out to even more than 4km. Part of the training of a gunner in Israel includes the firing of a HE-MP shell out to 5km. If you can do it from a Merkava, I don't see why you can't do it with a T-90 with modernized sights. Pretty much anywhere, firing a HE-MP shell to 5km seems like a standard. 

A HEAT shell would ideally have better ballistic traits than a HE-MP.

/.../

   GL-ATGMs are noticeably more accurate against moving targets on rough terrain (like VBIED, if we are speaking about Syria, there was a video of Bastion GL-ATGM used vs some truck that i posted long time ago) because FCS when firing HEAT rounds can't take this parameters into consideration.

 

11 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

Isn't VTRK very specifically NOT an ATGM? It's supposed to be a division level precision strike weapon like a glorified Spike NLOS, only out to 100km instead of 30km.

Due to the range, the Spike NLOS is no longer used as an ATGM, rather as a precision strike weapon with a general purpose warhead (Anti Personnel/Anti Material) against high value targets.

When I'm talking ATGMs, I mean something that you'd carry on your back in pieces, or on an AFV. 

/.../

   Isn't Spike NLOS considered as ATGM? VTRK is based on Hermes ATGM familiy, which had different versions (Hermes-A for helicopters), i don't know if they are working on whole family of ATGMs, though. Apperently we are also working on some sort of F&F ATGM for AFVs in size of Kornet, at least GurKhan mentioned it in his post about Epokha turret, but this is not confirmed officially.

 

11 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

This post wasn't written for you. It was written for the less informed who wanted to watch the video but still understand something. I wrote everything I deemed note-worthy in points. Not everyone here can read and understand Russian like us.

/.../

    A lot of this info is in this very threat pages ago, which i pointed out. Contract for T-90M for example was posted here, it have exact number of newly build and modernised vehicles in it.

 

11 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

Of course I know they have an ammunition selection option. I've seen it. I was just mocking the way they said it.

   This whole show should be mocked, only *some* of their footage is interesting simply because of exclusive content. 

[skylancer-3441]

I guess some Russian-speaking viewers watch it only with sound muted.

[heretic88]

Are there any projects for modernizing older ATGMs with top attack warheads? Just like americans modernized TOW-2. This way Kornet, Hrizantema, Ataka, and even Konkurs would be lethal against anything not equipped with APS.

[LoooSeR]

13 minutes ago, heretic88 said:

Are there any projects for modernizing older ATGMs with top attack warheads? Just like americans modernized TOW-2. This way Kornet, Hrizantema, Ataka, and even Konkurs would be lethal against anything not equipped with APS.

Never heard of any kind of them. 

 

[LoooSeR]

 

Experimental platform "Marker"

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, heretic88 said:

Are there any projects for modernizing older ATGMs with top attack warheads? Just like americans modernized TOW-2. This way Kornet, Hrizantema, Ataka, and even Konkurs would be lethal against anything not equipped with APS.

This would make them useless against most soft targets. I'd vote against such a move.

2 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Missile are usefull not only against MBTs. Not all MBTs we would face are ATGM-proof, have all kinds of APS, and as i said realistically we have much more reasons to worry about fighting with partially moded T-64 and T-72, which would not be a very hard target to crack for Invar/Relfex and similar.

If you're talking about Ukraine, then yeah, but that's a short sighted solution because it depends on an economically weak Ukraine.

2 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   GL-ATGMs are noticeably more accurate against moving targets on rough terrain (like VBIED, if we are speaking about Syria, there was a video of Bastion GL-ATGM used vs some truck that i posted long time ago) because FCS when firing HEAT rounds can't take this parameters into consideration.

Can't take into consideration multiple different maneuvers by the truck, or cannot fire against moving targets? Because the latter can be fixed by using an auto-tracker, a technology that exists in Russia.

Against fast movers of any kind I'd opt for using an APFSDS (which actually was used operationally against VBIEDs).

 

2 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   Isn't Spike NLOS considered as ATGM? VTRK is based on Hermes ATGM familiy, which had different versions (Hermes-A for helicopters), i don't know if they are working on whole family of ATGMs, though. Apperently we are also working on some sort of F&F ATGM for AFVs in size of Kornet, at least GurKhan mentioned it in his post about Epokha turret, but this is not confirmed officially.

 

Spike NLOS is technically an ATGM, and I think its users are running with at least a few HEAT-equipped missiles nearby, plus in the new variant using a switch-enabled dual mode warhead, but for the most part the IDF's using it for tactical strikes against high value targets and is considered an integral part of the artillery units rather than seen as another AT weapon. That is primarily due to its range. 

Go even further and you're entrenching this mindset of it being a tactical precision strike weapon and further diminish its role as an AT weapon.

 

The claim of F&F can be deceiving. As I said earlier, the Kornet-EM is considered an F&F but in closer inspection it really is just a modification to the launcher, while the missile itself remains the good old 2nd gen.

After the US Army and MC will equip themselves with APS, they will have an extensive capability to destroy ATGM-launchers seconds after launch, and before the missile hits. Numerous other European armies are also either considering or already purchasing an APS. 

Against such an enemy this pseudo-F&F mode just won't work. You won't be able to shoot-and-scoot. If the launcher is destroyed or otherwise damaged in some way by return fire, the missile will not reach its target as you'd expect from a true F&F.

Since the Epoch/Epokha turret uses Kornet-EM missiles, or some other variant of the Kornet, I'm inclined to believe they meant a launcher modification (auto-tracker) rather than any modification to the missile, because modifying the missile would almost certainly mean creating an entirely new missile.

 

But if you can, please link GurKhan's post. I'd like to read it.

 

2 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

    A lot of this info is in this very threat pages ago, which i pointed out. Contract for T-90M for example was posted here, it have exact number of newly build and modernised vehicles in it.

They said they started filming around April IIRC, so that explains why they talked about such contract as a possibility instead of a fact.

[heretic88]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

This would make them useless against most soft targets.

Still americans did that to TOW-2. Solution is different kinds of warheads. This is actually not a problem, there are thermobaric variants of Kornet, Hrizantema, etc.

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Against fast movers of any kind I'd opt for using an APFSDS (which actually was used operationally against VBIEDs).

APFSDS is nearly useless against anything unarmored or lightly armored. The rod just makes a small hole without doing any real damage. (there are some examples of this from eastern ukraine) Sure there were cases when APFSDS was used successfully, but this is an exception rather than a rule. In this case, Loooser is right, an ATGM is better at very long ranges.

[alanch90]

4 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

This would make them useless against most soft targets. I'd vote against such a move.

 

Its not a mutually exclusive choice. For example Bill-2 has both top attack and direct attack mode. Actually a top attack (of the overhead type, with an EFP warhead detonating several meters above the target tank) might be the only way to defeat current APS systems.

[Ramlaen]

TOW-2B, the top attack variant, can be fired in direct attack as an HE warhead.

[Militarysta]

8 hours ago, skylancer-3441 said:

I guess some Russian-speaking viewers watch it only with sound muted.

x2

 

This TV guy should building second Bialomorski channell by himself -he so hard dumb that he could be used as hammer to replace pins in tracks. So - niece videos and fotos whit mute

[LoooSeR]

8 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

This would make them useless against most soft targets. I'd vote against such a move.

/.../

How so? A lot of top attack missiles could be launched in direct mode. Also, if target is in dug in position, top attack ATGM would have better chances and accurace against it.

 

8 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

If you're talking about Ukraine, then yeah, but that's a short sighted solution because it depends on an economically weak Ukraine.

/.../

I don't see Ukraine or Georgia or Uzbekistan becoming leading nations in military field any time soon.

 

8 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

Can't take into consideration multiple different maneuvers by the truck, or cannot fire against moving targets? Because the latter can be fixed by using an auto-tracker, a technology that exists in Russia.

/.../

Yes, target tracker is even working on T-72B3's FCS. I was talking about maneuvers and movement of vehicle being unpredictable because of rough terrain under it.

 

8 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

Against fast movers of any kind I'd opt for using an APFSDS (which actually was used operationally against VBIEDs).

/.../

   Not very often and many thin-skinned targets that have big-ish volume will survive APFSDS rounds if not hit in critical parts because of low after armor effect after penetrating thin (or non-existant) armor.

 

8 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

/.../

The claim of F&F can be deceiving. As I said earlier, the Kornet-EM is considered an F&F but in closer inspection it really is just a modification to the launcher, while the missile itself remains the good old 2nd gen.

/.../

Since the Epoch/Epokha turret uses Kornet-EM missiles, or some other variant of the Kornet, I'm inclined to believe they meant a launcher modification (auto-tracker) rather than any modification to the missile, because modifying the missile would almost certainly mean creating an entirely new missile.

 

But if you can, please link GurKhan's post. I'd like to read it.

/.../

   He mentioned F&F missile with thermal imager warhead, so i suppose we are not speaking about launcher equipped with target tracker.

"a multi-purpose missile system in the dimensions of the Kornet ATGM with a thermal imaging seeker" 

   Although he probably mixed up names, as he called it Bulat, while a guy that was speaking during expo with Epokha turret makers told that on expo Bulat was claimed to be small kinetic ATGMs on top of Epokha roof.

[Mighty_Zuk]

4 hours ago, alanch90 said:

Its not a mutually exclusive choice. For example Bill-2 has both top attack and direct attack mode. Actually a top attack (of the overhead type, with an EFP warhead detonating several meters above the target tank) might be the only way to defeat current APS systems.

Not really. Such ATGMs only fly over a target by a very short distance, and for a protracted period of time are within the kill zone of an APS. 

The only ATGM that is advertised, and is indeed seen, as an anti-APS weapon, is the Spike LR2, owing to its very high angle of attack. But even that is only a viable approach until adversaries choose to develop high coverage systems. The Afganit only covers the frontal arc and cannot protect well against elevated threats, so the Spike LR 2's developers capitalized on that. You might even say the Javelin and other top attack missiles can achieve the same feat with only a somewhat lower efficiency.

 

Defeating an overflying top attack ATGM such as the Bill 2 is just a matter of a few lines of code. 

1 hour ago, LoooSeR said:

I don't see Ukraine or Georgia or Uzbekistan becoming leading nations in military field any time soon.

 

SACLOS missiles can be easily defeated by incremental upgrades to the AFV, with perhaps the sole exception of overhead ATGMs which can still be countered with low-tech solutions.

Simply adding more layers of ERA, like on the Oplot, would do wonders against such missiles. 

 

Quote

 

He mentioned F&F missile with thermal imager warhead, so i suppose we are not speaking about launcher equipped with target tracker.

"a multi-purpose missile system in the dimensions of the Kornet ATGM with a thermal imaging seeker" 

Although he probably mixed up names, as he called it Bulat, while a guy that was speaking during expo with Epokha turret makers told that on expo Bulat was claimed to be small kinetic ATGMs on top of Epokha roof.

 

I trust him, and I do remember hearing about that. It's just going to be funny to hear how they'd justify building Javelin missiles after claiming Kornets to be better. 

And yet it's still a step too short and too late. Among the growing trends in the west is signature management, specifically thermal. 

[alanch90]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Not really. Such ATGMs only fly over a target by a very short distance, and for a protracted period of time are within the kill zone of an APS. 

The only ATGM that is advertised, and is indeed seen, as an anti-APS weapon, is the Spike LR2, owing to its very high angle of attack. But even that is only a viable approach until adversaries choose to develop high coverage systems. The Afganit only covers the frontal arc and cannot protect well against elevated threats, so the Spike LR 2's developers capitalized on that. You might even say the Javelin and other top attack missiles can achieve the same feat with only a somewhat lower efficiency.

 

Defeating an overflying top attack ATGM such as the Bill 2 is just a matter of a few lines of code. 

 

It all depends on two things depending on the distance (speciffically altitude) and trajectory of the ATGM   firstly there is the issue  with threat identification, since APS wont just intercept every flying thing on the battlefield, if it detects an incoming ATGM but whose trajectory doesn`t lead directly to the tank, there is the possibility that the system judges that ATGM to be a non-threat to the vehicle and therefore not initiate interception. Secondly there is an issue with the maximum intercepting range of the hard kill APS, i envision  an ATGM that will be designed to detonate outside the intercepting range of specific systems. And that without mentioning possible decoys and countermeasures on the part of ATGM, people can get very creative when designing weapons. In the future the race of ATGM vs APS will be very interesting.
I imagine something along the lines of TOW 2B, that thing demonstrated detonation at least 10 meteres above the target.  I wonder, would trophy (for example) be able to intercept such missile? Even if it recognizes the threat, can it intercept something flying at that altitude?

[LoooSeR]

ATGM discussions now should be continued/moved to appropriate thread.

http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/1055-atgms-and-rpgs-for-infantry-a-thread-for-rebels-around-the-world-to-choose-their-atgm-supplier/page/21/

 

[LoooSeR]

Quote

Sri Lanka Army T-55AM2

[heretic88]

1 hour ago, LoooSeR said:

Sri Lanka Army T-55AM2

BTW, how does the original soviet M/AM Volna FCS compare to the one in this AM2? In the hungarian army we had quite a few AM2s, but there were... problems. Accuracy wasnt the best, and the sight was almost useless in certain periods of the day: dawn and dusk. Light transmission was terrible thanks to the integrated LED system that drawed the "crosshair". Also the reliability issues...

 

[Ramlaen]

The english in this article is rough but it is arguing in favor of 57mm guns based on the performance of 30mm guns in Syria.

 

https://www.armyrecognition.com/analysis_focus_army_defence_military_industry_army/russia_designs_new_option_of_bmpt_terminator_tank_support_vehicle.html

[LoooSeR]

On 2/28/2019 at 12:50 AM, heretic88 said:

BTW, how does the original soviet M/AM Volna FCS compare to the one in this AM2? In the hungarian army we had quite a few AM2s, but there were... problems. Accuracy wasnt the best, and the sight was almost useless in certain periods of the day: dawn and dusk. Light transmission was terrible thanks to the integrated LED system that drawed the "crosshair". Also the reliability issues...

 

IDK, never bothered to research FCS on those things.

[LoooSeR]

As someone in Discord was suprised to see this and i guess people here would also be mildly interested - Object 188 with 2A66 Anker gun and Nakidka 

 

Without Nakidka

Spoiler

 

   "Improved T-72B" aka Object 188 aka sometimes T-88 (1989), in Russian Federation it became T-90 in 1992 (with 2A46 gun). Before getting to 1992 Object 187 was sometimes reffered as "T-90", heh. So before collapse of USSR - Object 188 was "T-88", Object 187 was T-90, while after collapse 188 became T-90.

Spoiler

 

Quote

   As for the intentions to assign the name “T-90” to the tank “Object 187”, we find the echoes of those events in the diary of the chief engineer “Uralvagonzavod” of those years, Mikhail T. Shpak:
- Export realization (80% of the funds remain to the plant),

- Cash to pay salaries to the employees of the association (20.0 million rubles) - I will send it by plane,

- I will sign the resolution on adopting the T-88 into service,

- I will sign a prospect T-90 EA.
On June 10, Yeltsin and Galkin were shown products 188. The President’s conclusion: “A mighty factory and design bureau!” B.N. promised money to Potkin V.I. on the continuation of the T-90EA.

 

 

[LoooSeR]

T-90MS pic/graphic

[LoooSeR]

https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/1154830.html

Quote

Loading mechanism for 130 mm cannon of a heavy tank Object 279, model based on T-10.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[LoooSeR]

Fem crews in pre-TB competitions

 

[LoooSeR]

BMP-2s with Berezhok turrets spotted.

[LoooSeR]

Iraq

[LoooSeR]

Quote

The T-90S tanks that arrived in Vietnam are preparing for transportation using wheeled tractors KZKT-7428 8x8.