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1 hour ago, Wiedzmin said:

105mm DM13(L28) APDS vs T-62 from 200 meters(german protection thickness TL graph made for 800 meters).

 

Thanks for posting. Very interesting.

 

The Schotte Nr. 2 shows that West-Germany worked on a combination of NERA and perforated armor, I wonder if similar armor was used for the later Leopard 2. The name ("Schotte Nr. 2") also suggests that there have been multiple types of "Schotte" (add-on) armor.

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5 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

 

Thanks for posting. Very interesting.

 

The Schotte Nr. 2 shows that West-Germany worked on a combination of NERA and perforated armor, I wonder if similar armor was used for the later Leopard 2. The name ("Schotte Nr. 2") also suggests that there have been multiple types of "Schotte" (add-on) armor.

As for the problem of armor type, Swiss had given an answer I think

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12 minutes ago, Molota_477 said:

As for the problem of armor type, Swiss had given an answer I think 

Image may contain: text

 

Is this from an official source? It contradicts other available informations (e.g. there are/were a few Panzer 87 Werterhaltung tanks with old B-technology skirts). Supposedly only a few hulls are made with C-technology armor (which were purchased from KMW at a later point of time).

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12 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

 

Is this from an official source? It contradicts other available informations (e.g. there are Panzer 87 Werterhaltung tanks with old B-technology skirts). Supposedly only a few hulls are made with C-technology armor (which were purchased from KMW at a later point of time).

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/1872ce_9930857da5734a0496220e05503b7fb0.pdf

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35 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

 

Thanks for posting. Very interesting.

 

The Schotte Nr. 2 shows that West-Germany worked on a combination of NERA and perforated armor, I wonder if similar armor was used for the later Leopard 2. The name ("Schotte Nr. 2") also suggests that there have been multiple types of "Schotte" (add-on) armor.

it's possible, when i get to report next time i will upload smoothbore APFSDS vs this addon and T-62 + Milan vs another type(similar but not the same) addon on T-62

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2 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

105mm DM13(L28) APDS vs T-62 from 200 meters(german protection thickness TL graph made for 800 meters).

Thats very interesting.

So can we say that, the T-62 was a very tough beast for these early APDS, at least for medium ranges? I remember I read in a book that in arab-israeli wars, T-55s and T-62s were quite hard to kill frontally above 1500 meters, especially turret was tough thanks to the shape.

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58 minutes ago, SH_MM said:

 

Okay, so it is not official. Thanks. The "ceramic composite armor" statement might be inspired from the Wikipedia article.

I can confirm but not prove to you that the description of the OG Panzer is 100% correct and not inspired by Wiki! FYI the heavy track skirts are in D-Tech at all Pz87 and Pz87 WE

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46 minutes ago, heretic88 said:

Thats very interesting.

So can we say that, the T-62 was a very tough beast for these early APDS, at least for medium ranges? I remember I read in a book that in arab-israeli wars, T-55s and T-62s were quite hard to kill frontally above 1500 meters, especially turret was tough thanks to the shape.

without testing on ranges from 1.5km and beyond  i can't say for sure + L52 APDS i think can kill it from 2km +

 

but one is for sure good quality of steel(doesn't cracked having so much damage from all type of ammo used against) and weld and protection even vs 105mm APFSDS could be achived without having much trouble. 

 

 from german testing of T-55 in 1970(no any details, just pieces of information, hull was penetrated from 500 meters with DM13 while turret was tested from 500, 200 and 100 meters and have only one or two penetations(no data were it hited etc, only that firing was done at frontal part without +-30 flank angle, straight in the frontal part) and report mentions that in real combat conditions (Israel) the tank really was quite resistant to hits, but without details

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3 hours ago, Wiedzmin said:

105mm DM13(L28) APDS vs T-62 from 200 meters(german protection thickness TL graph made for 800 meters).

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 


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The DM13 HVAP DS (hyper velocity armour piercing discarding sabot) round was the first nature fired from L7A3 105 mm gun installed in Leopard 1. The perforation limit of this round was 250 mm @ 800m & 0° NATO. This was the standard engagement distance in firing halt with sufficient hit probability against this types of targets.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wiedzmin said:

 from german testing of T-55 in 1970(no any details, just pieces of information, hull was penetrated from 500 meters with DM13 while turret was tested from 500, 200 and 100 meters and have only one or two penetations(no data were it hited etc, only that firing was done at frontal part without +-30 flank angle, straight in the frontal part) and report mentions that in real combat conditions (Israel) the tank really was quite resistant to hits, but without details

Yes, the excellent steel used in construction of these tanks was revealed by yugoslav tests too.

As for T-55 turret testing, this drawing may explain the results. I made this myself long ago, so it isnt entirely accurate, but still quite obvious that when shooting without any flank angle, the LOS thickness goes up rapidly from the center of the turret. Probably the same is true for T-62, although its turret isnt so well shaped.

tn_800x600_1519484_44329_T54_55_torony.j

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2 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

I can confirm but not prove to you that the description of the OG Panzer is 100% correct and not inspired by Wiki! FYI the heavy track skirts are in D-Tech at all Pz87 and Pz87 WE 

 

pz87_gghdfjkl002.jpg

 

Panzer 87WE with old skirts (B-technoloy).

 

 

Pz_87_Leopard_-_Seite_-_Schweizer_Armee_

Panzer 87 with old skirts (B-technology)

 

There is no external distinction between heavy skirts of C- and D-technology, they have the same thickness and shape.

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1 hour ago, SH_MM said:

 

pz87_gghdfjkl002.jpg

 

Panzer 87WE with old skirts (B-technoloy).

 

 

Pz_87_Leopard_-_Seite_-_Schweizer_Armee_

Panzer 87 with old skirts (B-technology)

 

There is no external distinction between heavy skirts of C- and D-technology, they have the same thickness and shape.

This is Pz87 WE with the D-Tech heavy track skirts

https://images.app.goo.gl/gHpuzf4zXxzQAKSKA

The Pz87 WE is to be recognized by the PERI flap

 

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   Heh, that one is very rare. Before this photo i was sure that Vodniks are not used in our army.

Quote

Armored medical vehicle (BMM) "Aibolit" (multipurpose GAZ-3937 "Vodnik" equipped with an armored medical module) during a special tactical exercise with medical units of the Western Military District in St. Petersburg.

2XsAOa3.jpg

 

Spoiler

svgFpQK.jpg

 

   And yes, it have a crane
0uzTkB0.jpg

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   Su-152 "Taran"

https://btvtinfo.blogspot.com/2019/06/152-120.html

 

K25HfBZ.jpg

 

Spoiler

teLkJMr.jpg

 

Quote

Combat weight - 27 tons; crew - 4 people; Weapon: smoothbore 152.4 mm M69 gun, 14.5 mm HMG;
armor protection - [some vs HMGs and low-caliber ACs for the most part];
diesel - 353 kW (480 hp);

maximum speed - 63 km / h.

 

   M69 was very serious boomstick by 1960s standarts

Quote

/.../

   Due to the increased length of the gun barrel (9045 mm), the initial velocity of the armor-piercing-sabot non-rotating projectile was 1710 m/s, and the direct shot range at the target with a height of 2.0 m reached 2050 m. The maximum pressure in the barrel was 392 MPa (4000 kgs/sm2) . A projectile weighing 11.66 kg at a distance of 3000 m punched vertically positioned armor plate with a thickness of 310 mm. The gun had an ejection system for purging the bore after the shot and a slit-type muzzle brake, thanks to which the maximum recoil length was only 300 mm. To ensure high rate of fire, shots were placed in a drum ammorack, and the barrel was automatically brought to the loading angle for the period of loading.

/.../

   The ammunition for the cannon consisted of 22 shots with armor piercing sabot rounds and HE-fragmentation shells. Aiming during the day was done with the TS-22 telescopic sight, and at night with the aid of a periscopic night sight.

/.../

 

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On 6/18/2019 at 11:21 AM, LoooSeR said:

And yes, it have a crane
0uzTkB0.jpg

 

That is an odd thing to include

 

On 6/18/2019 at 10:37 PM, LoooSeR said:

M69 was very serius boomstick by 1960s standarts

Quote

/.../

   Due to the increased length of the gun barrel (9045 mm), the initial velocity of the armor-piercing-sabot non-rotating projectile was 1710 m/s, and the direct shot range at the target with a height of 2.0 m reached 2050 m. The maximum pressure in the barrel was 392 MPa (4000 kgs/sm2) . A projectile weighing 11.66 kg at a distance of 3000 m punched vertically positioned armor plate with a thickness of 310 mm. The gun had an ejection system for purging the bore after the shot and a slit-type muzzle brake, thanks to which the maximum recoil length was only 300 mm. To ensure high rate of fire, shots were placed in a drum ammorack, and the barrel was automatically brought to the loading angle for the period of loading.

/.../

   The ammunition for the cannon consisted of 22 shots with armor piercing sabot rounds and HE-fragmentation shells. Aiming during the day was done with the TS-22 telescopic sight, and at night with the aid of a periscopic night sight.

/.../

 

That's serious by modern standards

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On 6/18/2019 at 11:37 PM, LoooSeR said:

   Su-152 "Taran"

https://btvtinfo.blogspot.com/2019/06/152-120.html

 

  Reveal hidden contents

teLkJMr.jpg

 

 

 

Apparently, its maximum gun elevation didn't exceed +15°, that's too bad, because it would have been perfect as a self-propelled howitzer.

 

This vehicle is playable in the video game War Thunder but the ammo racks configuration is somewhat different :

 

 

1561153088-ammoracks-object-1202.png

 

 

On 6/18/2019 at 11:37 PM, LoooSeR said:

   M69 was very serius boomstick by 1960s standarts

 


Regarding its armor-piercing sub-caliber projectile, was it a 152 mm APDS or APFSDS ? It's not specified.

 

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105mm APFSDS from smoothbore vs T-62

 

 

https://sun9-14.userapi.com/c855724/v855724184/7748e/EeLwNl0xas0.jpg
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https://fromtheswedisharchives.wordpress.com/2019/01/03/rheinmetall-105-cm-smoothbore-performance/

 

for comparsion test of same APFSDS in Sweden

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