Ukrainian armor - Oplot-M, T-64M Bulat and other.

[LoooSeR]

Will be interesting to hear about weapon systems on both BTR-4 and this BTR-3

[LoooSeR]

Rare in this war T-64BM Bulat was spotted in the field. This one was abandoned.

[LoooSeR]

T-64BM Bulat spotted near Svyatogorsk (25km S-E of Izyum, Donbass)

 

Another one, knocked out or/and abandoned

 

Spoiler

 

After about 2 months of combat Bulats started to show up, but in small numbers. Strange situation.

[Glattrohr]

Appears that there's still some T-84 Oplots in the fight.

 

Posted 2.5.2022, location unknown : https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMLWXRg1J/

[Alzoc]

On 5/3/2022 at 10:32 PM, LoooSeR said:

After about 2 months of combat Bulats started to show up, but in small numbers. Strange situation.

 

Well I understand that they didn't popped up earlier since the Ukrainian didn't want to engage in an open fight with the Russian army, so they kept their armoured forces mostly hidden.

 

But as you said, it is weird that they appear isolated . If the Ukrainian engaged in counter attack they would want their armor to be concentrated...

Unless they use them as armored recon before entering a village that used to be occupied by the Russian.

The tank has more chance to survive an ambush than anything else and that would explain why they only send them one at a time (with infantry backup if they aren't stupid).

[Beer]

2 hours ago, Alzoc said:

 

Well I understand that they didn't popped up earlier since the Ukrainian didn't want to engage in an open fight with the Russian army, so they kept their armoured forces mostly hidden.

 

But as you said, it is weird that they appear isolated . If the Ukrainian engaged in counter attack they would want their armor to be concentrated...

Unless they use them as armored recon before entering a village that used to be occupied by the Russian.

The tank has more chance to survive an ambush than anything else and that would explain why they only send them one at a time (with infantry backup if they aren't stupid).

 

IMHO the picture of the way how VSU fights is somewhat distorted by the lack of evidence of their losses. It's obvious that Ukraineans manage to hide well large part of their losses - if you'd place all existing photos and videos of the VSU losses on the map you would find large areas of the battlefield with no footage at all. I think that the media image of light infantry war is not correct. 

 

Regarding the Bulats it's also a question how many of them are actually present in VSU units. They didn't have many and they lost around 20 in 2014 battles. Two of the three recently known lost ones were destroyed by an airstrike on the Kharkiv tank school yeard. I believe only one of them was lost in combat. 

[LoooSeR]

9 hours ago, Beer said:

 

IMHO the picture of the way how VSU fights is somewhat distorted by the lack of evidence of their losses. It's obvious that Ukraineans manage to hide well large part of their losses - if you'd place all existing photos and videos of the VSU losses on the map you would find large areas of the battlefield with no footage at all. I think that the media image of light infantry war is not correct. 

 

Regarding the Bulats it's also a question how many of them are actually present in VSU units. They didn't have many and they lost around 20 in 2014 battles. Two of the three recently known lost ones were destroyed by an airstrike on the Kharkiv tank school yeard. I believe only one of them was lost in combat. 

If you judge by Oryx list then yes, image is going to be distorted. Bunch of destroyed UAF vics are not on his list. Hell, i checked his Bulat section after a week or 2 after 2 Bulats casualties were spotted and he didn't had them counted.

 

2 Bulats that were lost in the field are those pics i posted above. 1 was abandoned, looks like.

[Beer]

13 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

If you judge by Oryx list then yes, image is going to be distorted. Bunch of destroyed UAF vics are not on his list. Hell, i checked his Bulat section after a week or 2 after 2 Bulats casualties were spotted and he didn't had them counted.

 

2 Bulats that were lost in the field are those pics i posted above. 1 was abandoned, looks like.

 

I remember reading somewhere (can't recall where anymore) that one of the videos was actuallly taken by Ukrainean soldier and that the tank was not abandoned. The damaged one for sure was. Anyway it's just a tiny number. 

[rocketeer]

22 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

If you judge by Oryx list then yes, image is going to be distorted. 

 

Borderline off-topic or not, it seems like good idea to remind the audience that Oryx is [dis-]information laundering operation, not too dissimilar in concept from the Bellingcat.

 

Everything it has to say just about anything should be taken with metric crap ton of salt. Besides having no integrity to speak of, these people have no idea what they're talking about, having no military education or experience.

 

TL;DR: Judging anything by Oryx lists is only marginally less counter-productive than straight up buying into the 'analysis' they helpfully provide. Don't.

 

[Atokara]

On 5/8/2022 at 6:34 PM, LoooSeR said:

If you judge by Oryx list then yes, image is going to be distorted. Bunch of destroyed UAF vics are not on his list. Hell, i checked his Bulat section after a week or 2 after 2 Bulats casualties were spotted and he didn't had them counted.

 

2 Bulats that were lost in the field are those pics i posted above. 1 was abandoned, looks like.

If your only criticism of Oryx is that they are slow then idk what to tell you. This is their current backlog which includes both RU and UKR vehicles.

Also you're full of it on the waiting a week or two for the Bulat in the field since it was uploaded the day it was lost

 

4 hours ago, rocketeer said:

 

Borderline off-topic or not, it seems like good idea to remind the audience that Oryx is [dis-]information laundering operation, not too dissimilar in concept from the Bellingcat.

 

Everything it has to say just about anything should be taken with metric crap ton of salt. Besides having no integrity to speak of, these people have no idea what they're talking about, having no military education or experience.

 

TL;DR: Judging anything by Oryx lists is only marginally less counter-productive than straight up buying into the 'analysis' they helpfully provide. Don't.

 

From what i can remember the guy behind Oryx worked as a consultant with ASELSAN prior to all this. Regardless where does he even give analysis on any of the losses he posts? He literally just posts the photos with dates and compiles it all in one place which is about as objective as you can get. Also if what you're saying qualifies someone on the subject, one of the largest anti-Oryx voices is a guy literally named armchair warlord who tried to claim that a T-72 Obr. 2016 picture was from the war in 2014, found 5 actual errors (that have been corrected) out of thousands, then hid his profile .

[rocketeer]

3 hours ago, Atokara said:

Regardless where does he even give analysis on any of the losses he posts? He literally just posts the photos with dates and compiles it all in one place which is about as objective as you can get.

 

Enjoy your read.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2021/12/a-monument-of-victory-bayraktar-tb2.html?m=1

 

As to accuracy and impartiality of his reporting, i personally advised him to seek military education when i got fed up with him declaring tanks as "destroyed" on the grounds of them getting hit by glorified petard, logging highly dubious kills on unverifiable evidence, intentionally misattributting kills to his waifu, so on, so forth, all the time, by the bucketloads.

 

3 hours ago, Atokara said:

Also if what you're saying qualifies someone on the subject, one of the largest anti-Oryx voices is a guy literally named armchair warlord who tried to claim that a T-72 Obr. 2016 picture was from the war in 2014, found 5 actual errors (that have been corrected) out of thousands, then hid his profile .

 

Bluntly speaking, i know a bunch of great defence tech experts whom have no military background of their own.

 

What makes them different from Oryx is that they don't think themselves entitled to be having an opinion on something that requires, for example, 7 years worth of only formal military education to qualify for sitting in the corner when experts are talking.

[Atokara]

10 minutes ago, rocketeer said:

As to accuracy and impartiality of his reporting, i personally advised him to seek military education when i got fed up with him declaring tanks as "destroyed" on the grounds of them getting hit by glorified petard,

The dude likes the TB2 which objectively has had an excellent track record across Nagorno-Karabakh and this war. Whether or not they were destroyed by a TB2 or not doesn't change the fact that they are destroyed.

15 minutes ago, rocketeer said:

logging highly dubious kills on unverifiable evidence

We are now at 3570 destroyed Russian vehicles. I would like you to find just 3 examples of falsely attributed kill claims. That would be a 0.0008% error rate.

 

17 minutes ago, rocketeer said:

Bluntly speaking, i know a bunch of great defence tech experts whom have no military background of their own.

 

What makes them different from Oryx is that they don't think themselves entitled to be having an opinion on something that requires, for example, 7 years worth of only formal military education to qualify for sitting in the corner when experts are talking.

Those "experts" aren't making one of the best publicly available compiled documentations of equipment losses in a modern war ever. Are they? Also before you were slamming for

9 hours ago, rocketeer said:

having no military education or experience.

,but now you are defending these nameless defense tech experts with no military background?

 

[Beer]

It doesn't matter for whom Oryx works or whom he supports. The point is that majority of the documented losses on his blog are real. Most of them have gigantic letters Z and V written on them and a large part of the machinery is also exclusively used only by Russia. There is certainly a grey zone in which certain losses can be attributed to both sides (lostarmour.info for comparison) but that doesn't make the list useless because there is still a lot of undisputable facts which one can take from the database. See, the 4th Guards Kantemirovskaya tank division is the only unit in this war using T-80U family of tanks. Those can't be mixed with Ukrainean. They are Russian and they are of 4th division. That's a fact. This division which was considered one of the best in the Russian army beyond any doubt lost more than 1/3 of its tanks. It doesn't mattter who delivered the message but without Oryx's list we would hardly know that because lostarmour doesn't show Russian losses at all (perhaps is not allowed to do so). 

 

My previous point that there are most likely numerous Ukrainean losses missing in the database was not about the databse per se. It's natural thing done by the side which controls the territory where losses occur. See how many Azeri losses surfaces only after the 2019 war? We will never know how many never got on public. That's simply the advantage of the side which controls the battlefield and it will continue to be like that in any future conflict.  

[rocketeer]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:02 PM, Beer said:

It doesn't matter for whom Oryx works or whom he supports. The point is that majority of the documented losses on his blog are real. Most of them have gigantic letters Z and V written on them and a large part of the machinery is also exclusively used only by Russia.

Now that I stopped laughing, here's the deal buddy.

 

Painting the letter Z on your wrecked hardware is bordering on standard procedure in Ukrainian Armed Force and National Guard. That's what they do whenever they have the time.

 

I'm not even talking about the absolute idiots that ultimately ended up costing Ukraine (the country) ¾ of it's economy and good chunk of the territory — the so-called "Ukrainian cyber army".

 

The reason to why LostArmour had to close the database is that the contents were simply exploited to throw in even more fakes after minor photoshopping. Or video editing for that matter.

 

Which makes the overwhelming majority of Oryx database simply worthless, as the kills cannot be reliably attributed. But there should be reason why this genius was kicked the hell out of LostArmour, if memory serves? 😂

[barbaria]

Rooster.gif

[Atokara]

40 minutes ago, rocketeer said:

Painting the letter Z on your wrecked hardware is bordering on standard procedure in Ukrainian Armed Force and National Guard. That's what they do whenever they have the time.

Some of Russia's most common losses are T-72B/B3s, T-80U/BVMs, BTR-82As, Tigr-Ms,  KamAZ 6x6. Please point to the use of these vehicles in Ukraine service. Also unironically the only fake Z's I've seen on vehicles was that really bad photoshop that was actually made by Russian's who then tried to pass it off as proofs that Ukraine was faking numbers.

Also I'm still waiting for you to find even a 0.0008% error rate in Oryx reporting.

[Beer]

9 hours ago, rocketeer said:

Now that I stopped laughing, here's the deal buddy.

 

Painting the letter Z on your wrecked hardware is bordering on standard procedure in Ukrainian Armed Force and National Guard. That's what they do whenever they have the time.

 

I'm not even talking about the absolute idiots that ultimately ended up costing Ukraine (the country) ¾ of it's economy and good chunk of the territory — the so-called "Ukrainian cyber army".

 

The reason to why LostArmour had to close the database is that the contents were simply exploited to throw in even more fakes after minor photoshopping. Or video editing for that matter.

 

Which makes the overwhelming majority of Oryx database simply worthless, as the kills cannot be reliably attributed. But there should be reason why this genius was kicked the hell out of LostArmour, if memory serves? 😂

 

That's not worth a reply but I'll try in a similar maner as Autokara. 

 

T-72B3, B3 obr.2016, T-80U family, T-80BVM, T-90A, BTR-82A, Tos-1, 1A, Tor family, Buk M2, BMP-3, BMD-4, BTR-MDM, Tigr, Typhoons, Kamaz, modern Urals, Su-34, Su-25SM, Su-30SM, Su35S, Mi-28N, Mi-35M, Ka-52, Orlan-10, Zala, Forpost etc. many other. I guess those are all Ukrainean with painted Z on them, right? 

 

Anyway whatever floats your boat. Just check if it's not sinking. 

[LoooSeR]

12 hours ago, rocketeer said:

Now that I stopped laughing, here's the deal buddy.

 

Painting the letter Z on your wrecked hardware is bordering on standard procedure in Ukrainian Armed Force and National Guard. That's what they do whenever they have the time.

 

I'm not even talking about the absolute idiots that ultimately ended up costing Ukraine (the country) ¾ of it's economy and good chunk of the territory — the so-called "Ukrainian cyber army".

 

The reason to why LostArmour had to close the database is that the contents were simply exploited to throw in even more fakes after minor photoshopping. Or video editing for that matter.

 

Which makes the overwhelming majority of Oryx database simply worthless, as the kills cannot be reliably attributed. But there should be reason why this genius was kicked the hell out of LostArmour, if memory serves? 😂

I'm in cope mode, but hell, this is too far.

 

At our discord i told few times that Oryx list is good-ish indication of scale of losses. Individually there can be mistakes, double counts, and other shit like that. Hell, he even counts T-64s as Russian losses, so section on BMP-1 and -2 losses should have bunch of DPR/LPR vics in them, which are not Russian army losses.

 

For record, first time i see someone claiming that painting Z is some sort of standart affair for UAF. Swarming around with phones and doing selfies/tik toks is frequent-ish, so you get one vehicle photographed and video'ed from many angles, but i'm didn't saw a specific vehicle prooved to be UAF AFV lost in fight with Z painted over it to make it 'Russian" casualty.

[Beer]

 

[LoooSeR]

[Lord_James]

4 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

 

This photo is terrible, what tank is that? T-84? 

[Beer]

14 hours ago, Lord_James said:

This photo is terrible, what tank is that? T-84? 

 

T-84 Oplot obr. 1999. Allegedly only five are operational in the whole Ukraine. 

[LoooSeR]

14 hours ago, Lord_James said:

 

Spoiler

 

This photo is terrible, what tank is that? T-84? 

Second best tank on the planet after Oplot BM.

[Lord_James]

5 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Second best tank on the planet after Oplot BM.

Speaking of, where are these sUpaH ToNKs? If there are as great as advertised, the Ukrainians would be sending them out on heroic missions, no?  

[LoooSeR]

T-84U