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Or maybe it will fall through. I doubt it though besides nationalism both nations want thr same box tank

 

 

You Russians and your nationalism.  You don't know how good you lucky bastards have it.  You can still make tanks.

 

The UK, despite inventing the damn things can't design or make them anymore.  Yes; it's sad, especially since in eighty-something years of tank development they never made one that was particularly good.  Yes; the UK, despite having a larger GDP than Russia, cannot make tanks or fighter aircraft on its own anymore.

 

The time is fast coming when NATO will have to standardize on a Europanzer, because they won't be able to sustain cute little boutique national MBTs that are materially identical to Leo 2s (I'm looking at you Ariete!).  If they do have a boutique national design, it'll probably be designed in South Korea or something.

 

Hell, in a few years the new KANT product, whatever improved abrams emerges and the Altay may be the only tanks in production in NATO.  The only alternative may end up being Poland or something.

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I think times changing and some European may actually push actual project to make something new. Maybe it will not be something groundbreaking (well, when last time France, UK, Italy and Germany made something grounbreaking in tanks? In WW1 UK and France did but this is all i remember), but it could be new. I just hope to see how Leclercs perfoms in Yemen to know what is actual level of European/French tank design school. 

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IIRC, they were claiming the design would be finished around, or after 2025. One can still try to guess the features though, and I think we will see;

- Modular AMAP armor.

- AMAP APS.

- Bustle-loader, probably from the French.

- 1800 hp diesel.

- Pneumatic suspension.

Etc etc...

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That will be not very impressive for 2030...

I suspect something just a bit creative. Maybe French designers will manage to push unmanned design based on one of Leclerc proposals.

Well, we are talking about Europe here.  :P They'll stick to what they are good at, and add a few things. 

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  • 7 months later...

What that really shows is that the Canadian army needed an assault gun and had to resort to deploying what they had readily available in order to fill a the need, which was basically an infantry support role. Something a vehicle like the M8 would have filled perfectly.  In low intensity conflicts when the threat from enemy armor is close to 0, vehicles like the M1128 or the defunct M8 program are easier to deploy and support yet pack the punch needed to deal with any potential threats.  The M1128 has some pretty serious design flaws but the concept is pretty sound. 

 

I do not foresee the large tank and tank battles being the typical future conflict. 

The Assault gun, Sryker 105mm or M-8 is fine - until it hits a mine.  Lessons of AFG and of Vietnam - if the enemy can get explosives, he will focus on mine warfare.  It is low risk, for the insurgent, and offers the promise of catastrophic kills.

I am not aware of any example in history of AFV crews taking armour off their vehicles (less turret removal on things like Rolls Royce armoured cars to allow viable armament to be carried).  These is no shortage of examples of people up-armouring their vehicles - officially or unofficially.

When commenting about AFV design, remember the people inside it.  They decide how effective it is.

Prior to the 1967 war, the most popular tank in the Israeli Armoured Corps was the AMX-13.  Reliable and fast, it was a fun machine.  The least popular tank was Centurion - slow and demanding a lot of heavy duty maintenance with plenty of hard to reach bits.  By the end of the war, the most popular tank was Centurion.  Much more bounced off it than penetrated.  When penetrated, the electric turret traverse and elevation mechanism did not burn, like the hydraulic system on the M-48s. The AMX-13 proved prone to catastrophic turret explosions to the point that there were combat refusals by AMX-13 crews.

If you want a crew to take a vehicle into action, you must ensure that the crew are confident that the vehicle gives them the best possible chance of survival.

 

Grumpy comment complete.

B   

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    • By N-L-M
      Restricted: for Operating Thetan Eyes Only
      By order of Her Gracious and Serene Majesty Queen Diane Feinstein the VIII
      The Dianetic People’s Republic of California
      Anno Domini 2250
      SUBJ: RFP for new battle tank
       
      1.      Background.
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      F.      IEDs
      In light of the known resistance of tanks to standard 10kg anti-tank mines, both the Perfidious Cascadians and the Mormonhideen have taken to burying larger anti-tank A2AD weaponry. The Cascadians have doubled up some mines, and the Mormons have regularly buried AT mines 3, 4, and even 5 deep.
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      A.      Solicitation outline:
      In light of the differing requirements for the 2 theaters of war in which the new vehicle is expected to operate, proposals in the form of a field-replaceable A-kit/B-kit solution will be accepted.
      B.      Requirements definitions:
      The requirements in each field are given in 3 levels- Threshold, Objective, and Ideal.
      Threshold is the minimum requirement to be met; failure to reach this standard may greatly disadvantage any proposal.
      Objective is the threshold to be aspired to; it reflects the desires of the People’s Auditory Forces Armored Branch, which would prefer to see all of them met. At least 70% must be met, with bonus points for any more beyond that.
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      C.      All proposals must accommodate the average 1.7m high Californian recruit.
      D.      The order of priorities for the DPRC is as follows:
      a.      Vehicle recoverability.
      b.      Continued fightability.
      c.       Crew survival.
      E.      Permissible weights:
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      b.      Width- 4m transport width.
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      c.       Height- The vehicle must not exceed 3.5m in height overall.
      G.     Technology available:
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      The following armor materials are in full production and available for use. Use of a non-standard armor material requires permission from a SEA ORG judge.
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      Basic steel armor, 250 BHN. The reference for all weapon penetration figures, good impact properties, fully weldable. Available in thicknesses up to 150mm (RHA) or 300mm (CHA).
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                                                                   ii.     Aluminum 5083
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      Thickness efficiency vs RHA of 0.33 vs CE, 0.3 vs KE.
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      Thickness efficiency vs RHA of 0.52 vs CE, 0.39 vs KE.
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      2.      AVDS-1790-5A (908 HP)
      3.      Kharkov 5TD (600 HP)
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      4.      Submission protocols.
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      Appendix 1- armor calculation
      Appendix 2- operational requirements
      Addendum 1 - more armor details
      Good luck, and may Hubbard guide your way to enlightenment!
    • By Monochromelody
      IDF had kept about 100 Tiran-6/T-62s since 1973, and remain service until 1990s. 
       
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    • By Sturgeon
      The LORD was with the men of Deseret. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots of steel.
      —The Book of Latter Day Saints, Ch 8, vs. 3:10, circa 25th Century CE
       
      BULLETIN: ALL INDUSTRIAL-MECHANICAL CONCERNS
       
      SOLICITATION FOR ALL-TERRAIN BATTLE TANK
       
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      Submissions will be accepted in USC only.
       
       
      Supplementary Out of Canon Information:
       
       
      I.     Technology available:
      a.      Armor:
      The following armor materials are in full production and available for use. Use of a non-standard armor material requires permission from a judge.
      Structural materials:
                                                                    i.     RHA/CHA
      Basic steel armor, 360 BHN. The reference for all weapon penetration figures, good impact properties, fully weldable. Available in thicknesses up to 4 inches (RHA) 8 inches (CHA). 
      Density- 0.28 lb/in^3.
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      More expensive to work with than RHA per weight, middling impact properties, low thermal limits. Excellent stiffness.
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      Non-structural passive materials:
                                                                  iii.     HHA
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      Thickness efficiency vs RHA of 0.14 vs CE, 0.1 vs KE.
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      Mass efficiency vs RHA- 1 vs CE, 0.8 vs KE.
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      Reactive armor materials:
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      A sandwich of 0.125in/0.125in/0.125in steel-explodium-steel.
      Requires mounting brackets of approximately 10-30% cassette weight.
      Must be spaced at least 2 sandwich thicknesses away from any other armor elements to allow full functionality. 81% coverage (edge effects).
                                                                  viii.     NERA
      A sandwich of 0.25in steel/0.25in rubber/0.25in steel.
      Requires mounting brackets of approximately 10-30% cassette weight.
      Must be spaced at least 1 sandwich thickness away from any other armor elements to allow full functionality. 95% coverage.
      The details of how to calculate armor effectiveness will be detailed in Appendix 1.
      b.      Firepower
                                                                    i.     Bofors 57mm (reference weapon) - 85,000 PSI PMax/70,000 PSI Peak Operating Pressure, high quality steel cases, recoil mechanisms and so on are at an equivalent level to that of the USA in the year 1960.
                                                                   ii.     No APFSDS currently in use, experimental weapons only - Spindle sabots or bourelleted sabots, see for example the Soviet BM-20 100mm APFSDS.
                                                                  iii.     Tungsten is available for tooling but not formable into long rod penetrators. It is available for penetrators up to 6 calibers L:D.
                                                                  iv.     Texan shaped charge technology - 4 CD penetration for high-pressure resistant HEAT, 5 CD for low pressure/ precision formed HEAT.
                                                                   v.     The subsidy-approved GPMG for the Lone Free State of Texas has the same form factor as the M240, but with switchable feed direction.. The standard HMG has the same form factor as the Kord, but with switchable feed direction.
      c.       Mobility
                                                                    i.     Engines tech level:
      1.      MB 838 (830 HP)
      2.      AVDS-1790-5A (908 HP)
      3.      Kharkov 5TD (600 HP)
      4.    Detroit Diesel 8V92 (400 HP)
      5.    Detroit Diesel 6V53 (200 HP)
                                                                   ii.     Power density should be based on the above engines. Dimensions are available online, pay attention to cooling of 1 and 3 (water cooled).
                                                                  iii.     Power output broadly scales with volume, as does weight. Trying to extract more power from the same size may come at the cost of reliability (and in the case of the 5TD, it isn’t all that reliable in the first place).
                                                                  iv.     There is nothing inherently wrong with opposed piston or 2-stroke engines if done right.
      d.      Electronics
                                                                    i.     LRFs- unavailable
                                                                   ii.     Thermals-unavailable
                                                                  iii.     I^2- Gen 2 maximum
                                                                  vi.     Texas cannot mass produce microprocessors or integrated circuits
                                                                 vii.    Really early transistors only (e.g., transistor radio)
                                                                viii.    While it is known states exist with more advanced computer technology, the import of such systems are barred by the east coast states who do not approve of their use by militaristic entities.
       
      Armor calculation appendix.
       
      SHEET 1 Armor defeat calculator 4in-54 1200 yd
       
      SHEET 2 Armor defeat calculator 4in-54 2000 yd
       
      SHEET 3 Armor defeat calculator 6in HEAT
       
      Range calculator
       
    • By Beer
      I haven't found an appropriate thread where to put some interesting rare stuff related to WW2 development, be it industrial one or makeshift field modifications. 
       
      Let's start with two things. The first one is a relatively recently found rarity from Swedish archives - a drawing of ČKD/BMM V8H-Sv tank. The drawing and a letter was found by WoT enthusiasts in Swedish archives in 2014 (the original announcement and the drawing source is here). The drawing is from a message dated 8th September 1941. One of the reasons why this drawing was not known before may be that the Czech archives were partially destroyed by floods in 2002. Anyway it is an export modification of the V-8-H tank accepted into Czechoslovak service as ST vz.39 but never produced due to the cancelation of all orders after Münich 1938 (for the same reason negotiations about licence production in Britain failed). Also later attempt to sell the tank to Romania failed due to BMM being fully busy with Wehrmacht priority orders. The negotiations with Sweden about licence production of V8H-Sv lasted till 1942, at least in May 1942 Swedish commission was present in Prague for negotiations. The tank differed compared to the base ST vz.39 in thicker armor with different front hull shape (armor 60 mm @ 30° on the hull front and also 60 mm on the turret; all sides were 40 mm thick). The tank was heavier (20 tons) and had the LT vz.38 style suspension with probably even larger wheels. The engine was still the same Praga NR V8 (240-250 Hp per source). The armament was unchanged with 47 mm Škoda A11 gun and two vz.37 HMG. The commander's cupola was of the simple small rotating type similar to those used on AH-IV-Sv tankettes. It is known that the Swedes officially asked to arm the tank with 75 mm gun, replace the engine with Volvo V12 and adding third HMG to the back of the turret. In the end the Swedes decided to prefer their own Strv/m42. 

      Source of the drawing
       
      The second is makeshift field modification found on Balkans. It appears Ustasha forces (and possibly some SS anti-partizan units) used several Italian M15/42 medium tanks with turrets from Pz.38(t). There are several photos of such hybrids but little more is known. On one photo it is possible to see Ustasha registration number U.O. 139.

      Few more photos of such hybrid.
       
      It appears that the source of all those photos to be found on the internet is this book, Armoured units of the Axis forces in southeastern Europe in WW2 by Dinko Predoevic. 
       
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