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https://vk.com/video-107187851_456240177

Rare video.

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   Presumably the servicemen of the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the Russian Armed Forces during the evacuation of body after the attack of the ISIS militants on the positions of Russian / Syrian forces.

   "Syria, 2015. Video from the camera on the helmet, no matter what happened, never leave a friend in the hands of the enemy."

 

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The US State Department and other US government organs believed their own propaganda.  Remember this? The US government is filled with aging Baby Boomers who feel considerable nostalgia about the

Look, I'm a patriotic American, and this sort of video makes me happy.  You see, as a patriotic American, I have long believed that my country makes the best propaganda.  Tremendous.  Huge.  The best,

Finally this whole thing comes to an end:

 

Russia accepts Israel's version on the downed jet.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-russia-accepts-our-take-on-syrian-downing-of-plane-coordination-goes-on/

 

The key points in Israel's version are that the SAA has fired indiscriminately and practically maniacally for almost an hour, with the first missile only being launched about a minute before the final Israeli bomb landed.

The Russian plane was downed long after IAF planes were already back home.

And the IAF gave a warning of "well over a minute" but do not specify how long, simply implying they gave a standard warning.

 

This whole thing can potentially be a very embarrassing for Russian AD units, so I'm guessing a thorough investigation is underway.

 

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Russia has now proceeded to the 5th version, according to which Israel is to fully blame for the attack:

 

https://sputniknews.com/world/201809231068261218-russia-israel-il20/

 

This is, however, only the 3rd version thag blames Israel, out of 5, therefore statistically Israel is only 60% to blame for the incident.

This is sufficient to say it carries most of the blame.

Syria statistically carries 20% of the blame, and so does France.

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53 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Russia has now proceeded to the 5th version, according to which Israel is to fully blame for the attack:

 

https://sputniknews.com/world/201809231068261218-russia-israel-il20/

 

This is, however, only the 3rd version thag blames Israel, out of 5, therefore statistically Israel is only 60% to blame for the incident.

This is sufficient to say it carries most of the blame.

Syria statistically carries 20% of the blame, and so does France.

WTF is this crap with percentages? This is not 5th version.

 

On 9/22/2018 at 4:13 AM, Mighty_Zuk said:

Finally this whole thing comes to an end:

 

Russia accepts Israel's version on the downed jet.

....

   Those claims of Russia accepting Israeli version are bullshit. Fresh MoD briefing posted today specifically note that Israeli actions were going against agreements done in 2015. MoD blaims Israel for "unprofessional or even negligent" actions. Bombing was done near a corridor which military and civilians plains use to land in Hmeymim. 

   MoD also notes that they have easier time with US plains than with Israeli actions, that created several times potential danger to our personal, but even in those situation MoD didn't used AA capabilities against Israeli jets. Than MoD speaks about coordination of Israel->Russia->Iran about pro-Iranian army and heavy weapons, plus about "sensetive" weapons and described actions of IAF as "extremely ungrateful". 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, LoooSeR said:

WTF is this crap with percentages? This is not 5th version.

 

   Those claims of Russia accepting Israeli version are bullshit. Fresh MoD briefing posted today specifically note that Israeli actions were going against agreements done in 2015. MoD blaims Israel for "unprofessional or even negligent" actions. Bombing was done near a corridor which military and civilians plains use to land in Hmeymim. 

   MoD also notes that they have easier time with US plains than with Israeli actions, that created several times potential danger to our personal, but even in those situation MoD didn't used AA capabilities against Israeli jets. Than MoD speaks about coordination of Israel->Russia->Iran about pro-Iranian army and heavy weapons, plus about "sensetive" weapons and described actions of IAF as "extremely ungrateful". 

 

This is a far more politically motivated show than a practical one. And as always, there are far more holes in each Russian official version than there are not.

 

Let's talk about all the claims:

 

1) No warning given - The Israeli delegation presented its own report, and Russian MoD has yet to comment on that data.

 

2) F-16 used the IL-20 as cover - Russia's inability to pinpoint the location of the F-16 (only by 3rd version they claimed F-16 were in the area), shows their claims of some 'typical' use of aircraft as cover, is hardly based on facts, and again there are no comments on Israel's report that shows the F-16 were hundreds of kilometers away by then.

 

3) Israel only warned 25 times and always on short notice - With well over 200 attacks inside Syria, Russia is basically claiming that Israel only very rarely notified ahead of attacks, which would be very inconsistent with their past claims that the deconfliction and cooperation line is working very well.

 

4) Russia is a benevolent regional ruler while Israel is ungrateful for Russia saving Israel from harm - The recent, and likely still continuing supply of advanced arms to Hezbollah, the continued relations with Hamas, and practically sponsoring of Iran and all its proxies, shows that in the eyes of Israel and western countries, Russia is still far more of a hostile country than a friendly one.

All that even though clearly Russia needs this cooperation agreement far more than Israel does. That is because Russia cannot take any military action against Israeli interests in the region, without sparking a war between nuclear powers. But Israel, on the other hand, can retaliate militarily for these accusations and provocation in a manner that would not justify a Russian retaliation, but would inflict severe harm to Russian interests. Basically Israel has leverage.

 

5) Russia has created a 140km Iran-free zone from Israel's border with Syria - Also infactual, as there are Iranian assets as close as 40km from the border. This one is partially true at best.

 

6) Russia conducted search ops for Israeli people's remains - The area at hand was held by ISIS, and upon capturing was immediately transferred to the SAA. This is the only one that is true.

 

Seems like the whole "Israel is entirely to blame" charade is to deflect from the fact that Russian forces screwed up big time and don't want any political backlash against that.

They failed to install proper IFF on the IL-20M, failed to notify the Syrians of the IL-20's path, failed to properly observe non-stealth planes coming from hundreds of kilometers away with combat load and in a predictable path, failed to notify the Il-20's crew even though they had both a verbal warning and radar warning a long time ahead.

They also failed to call off the hour-long indiscriminate fire that miraculously didn't hit anything else (missiles were basically fired in every direction).

They failed to inform SAA air defense operators (they have 'advised since 2015) of standard AD drills.

And of course the very frequent change of versions even days after the incident, alert us of massive failures from anywhere between the air control and AD operators in Syria, and the Ministry of Defense, as a simple incident has managed to create a great confusion among the highest ranks for a protracted period of time, which means they are ill prepared for any serious events, especially active wars, without going into terrible miscalculations.

 

Of course, it does seem odd right now that the Russian MoD is seeking to sever ties with Israel, while Putin and his administration are doing the contrary, trying to preserve the mutual ties.

 

Judging by the rhetoric, the MoD may have wanted to sever ties for a long time and has looked for opportunities to do that, and an opportunity just popped up.

 

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1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

....

Let's talk about all the claims:

1) No warning given - The Israeli delegation presented its own report, and Russian MoD has yet to comment on that data.

It is given it's data

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

2) F-16 used the IL-20 as cover - Russia's inability to pinpoint the location of the F-16 (only by 3rd version they claimed F-16 were in the area), shows their claims of some 'typical' use of aircraft as cover, is hardly based on facts, and again there are no comments on Israel's report that shows the F-16 were hundreds of kilometers away by then.

MoD claims "unprofessional or even negligent" actions of IAF are reason.

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

3) Israel only warned 25 times and always on short notice - With well over 200 attacks inside Syria, Russia is basically claiming that Israel only very rarely notified ahead of attacks, which would be very inconsistent with their past claims that the deconfliction and cooperation line is working very well.

 

It also could mean that Israel was bombing targets near Russian-operated areas 25 times

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

4) Russia is a benevolent regional ruler while Israel is ungrateful for Russia saving Israel from harm - The recent, and likely still continuing supply of advanced arms to Hezbollah, the continued relations with Hamas, and practically sponsoring of Iran and all its proxies, shows that in the eyes of Israel and western countries, Russia is still far more of a hostile country than a friendly one.

All that even though clearly Russia needs this cooperation agreement far more than Israel does. That is because Russia cannot take any military action against Israeli interests in the region, without sparking a war between nuclear powers. But Israel, on the other hand, can retaliate militarily for these accusations and provocation in a manner that would not justify a Russian retaliation, but would inflict severe harm to Russian interests. Basically Israel has leverage.

 

It wasn't saying that Russia is a ruler of this region, they were speaking about cooperation between Russia and Israel before this event. 

 

   WTF is this "and practically sponsoring of Iran and all its proxies" even mean? When Russia sponsored any Iranian proxy or Hezbollah?

   Russia doesn't need cooperation with Israel, because we have nothing to gain from Israel.

   A ticket to bomb our ally for free isn't enough? Maybe we should start killing Syrians ourselves, instead of IAF? Maybe we should start to bomb Iranian proxy and fight them with our ground forces? This "hostile country" done more for Israeli interests in region than for Iranians. IAF payment was bombing 17 km near our AB, creating dangerous conditions for our troops (and not for the first time, on number of occasions this happened).

 

   Russia can counter Israel interests in Syria, if political leadership wanted that.

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

5) Russia has created a 140km Iran-free zone from Israel's border with Syria - Also infactual, as there are Iranian assets as close as 40km from the border. This one is partially true at best.

 

 

...and that is more than Israel done for us in this region.

 

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

Seems like the whole "Israel is entirely to blame" charade is to deflect from the fact that Russian forces screwed up big time and don't want any political backlash against that.

They failed to install proper IFF on the IL-20M, failed to notify the Syrians of the IL-20's path, failed to properly observe non-stealth planes coming from hundreds of kilometers away with combat load and in a predictable path, failed to notify the Il-20's crew even though they had both a verbal warning and radar warning a long time ahead.

They also failed to call off the hour-long indiscriminate fire that miraculously didn't hit anything else (missiles were basically fired in every direction).

They failed to inform SAA air defense operators (they have 'advised since 2015) of standard AD drills.

And of course the very frequent change of versions even days after the incident, alert us of massive failures from anywhere between the air control and AD operators in Syria, and the Ministry of Defense, as a simple incident has managed to create a great confusion among the highest ranks for a protracted period of time, which means they are ill prepared for any serious events, especially active wars, without going into terrible miscalculations.

 

Of course, it does seem odd right now that the Russian MoD is seeking to sever ties with Israel, while Putin and his administration are doing the contrary, trying to preserve the mutual ties.

 

Judging by the rhetoric, the MoD may have wanted to sever ties for a long time and has looked for opportunities to do that, and an opportunity just popped up.

 

   This is pile of dumbest shit i saw for a while.

   We wouldn't even speak about this event if Israel did not bomb anything near our AB in the first place. Initiator of event was Israel, not Syrian AD, which were responding to situation created by IAF.

 

   AA forces would had a realistical chance to shot down IL-20M even with IFF, there is number of such situation because of specifics of AA work. For example in 2003 war in Iraq Coaltion forces in 1.5 week managed to shot down British Tornado and F/A-18C with Patriot systems, while Iraqi AF didn't even bothered to come to this war. Syrians would have more chances to awoid fuck ups with something better than ancient S-200s, but S-300 transfer to SAA was canceled by Israel request. Conducting strikes from generally same area as IL was coming to Hmeymim was not going to improve those chances anyway, especially with EW enviroment.

 

   And stop this telepathic crap with "Russian MoD is seeking to sever ties with Israel, while Putin and his administration are doing the contrary". Nobody fucking knows what generals in MoD thinks and wants. Putin gives order as Commander-in-Chief and MoD is doing them, results are seen in Ukraine.

 

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Shoigu: "The Syrian armed forces will receive a modern S-300 anti-aircraft missile system within two weeks. It is capable of intercepting air attack means at ranges of more than 250 km and hitting several air targets at the same time."

WIll not help much without proper AD radar coverage system. Although it is a right step towards creating a some sort of order in Syrian skies.

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13 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

   WTF is this "and practically sponsoring of Iran and all its proxies" even mean? When Russia sponsored any Iranian proxy or Hezbollah?

Russia's sponsoring of Iran is basically sponsoring of Iran's military branches, which include Hezbollah and PIJ.

 

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   Russia doesn't need cooperation with Israel, because we have nothing to gain from Israel.

Really? Not even free reign in Syria and 

 

Quote

   Russia can counter Israel interests in Syria, if political leadership wanted that.

I don't really see how. Israel can assassinate Assad while taking only a political backlash. Russia cannot really retaliate militarily in any way. Only covert or political measures that will be of lower magnitude than the damage inflicted by Assad's removal.

 

Quote

A ticket to bomb our ally for free isn't enough? Maybe we should start killing Syrians ourselves, instead of IAF? Maybe we should start to bomb Iranian proxy and fight them with our ground forces? This "hostile country" done more for Israeli interests in region than for Iranians. IAF payment was bombing 17 km near our AB, creating dangerous conditions for our troops (and not for the first time, on number of occasions this happened).

   This is pile of dumbest shit i saw for a while.

   We wouldn't even speak about this event if Israel did not bomb anything near our AB in the first place. Initiator of event was Israel, not Syrian AD, which were responding to situation created by IAF.

Then maybe next time Russia can monitor the area and prevent Iranian troops from entrenching very close to Russian forces. Part of the agreement is that Russia will not interfere in Israel's ongoing conflict with Iran, other than as a mediator perhaps.

Russia claims Israel used the Il-20 as a shield in at least 2 of their versions (who knows what they may claim in the next one), but they say nothing about Iran using Russian bases and troops as shields.

 

Quote

   AA forces would had a realistical chance to shot down IL-20M even with IFF, there is number of such situation because of specifics of AA work. For example in 2003 war in Iraq Coaltion forces in 1.5 week managed to shot down British Tornado and F/A-18C with Patriot systems, while Iraqi AF didn't even bothered to come to this war.

And yet they didn't blame the Iraqis for downing their planes, have they?

 

Quote

Syrians would have more chances to avoid fuck ups with something better than ancient S-200s, but S-300 transfer to SAA was canceled by Israel request. Conducting strikes from generally same area as IL was coming to Hmeymim was not going to improve those chances anyway, especially with EW enviroment.

What does it matter if they continue literally firing the S-200 in every direction, on ballistic trajectories, hoping the radar would pick up at least some targets along the way? 

They fired like a bunch of retards and it now cost them a Russian plane. 

 

Quote

   And stop this telepathic crap with "Russian MoD is seeking to sever ties with Israel, while Putin and his administration are doing the contrary". Nobody fucking knows what generals in MoD thinks and wants. Putin gives order as Commander-in-Chief and MoD is doing them, results are seen in Ukraine.

 

Except it's no longer the case. Putin said Israel is not to blame for the incident, while the Russian MoD said that Israel is the only one to blame (even though there were at least a dozen stupid mistakes made by the Russian and Syrian forces alike in that incident).

 

13 minutes ago, LoooSeR said:

WIll not help much without proper AD radar coverage system. Although it is a right step towards creating a some sort of order in Syrian skies.

It will also definitely not prevent such incidents from occurring in the future, unless the VKS start putting IFF equipment on their planes, for the Syrians to see.

It may indeed put some order, and allow Syria to observe its skies better, preventing accidents by eliminating other errors from the chain, but it could also be a marketing nightmare if Israel targets this system. 

You forgot this part though:

Quote

The Russian defense ministry said Monday that President Vladimir Putin will outfit the Syrian military with its sophisticated S-300 air defense system and jam radars of military planes striking from off the coast of the Mediterranean, in the wake of the downing of a Russian spy plane by Syrian air defenses during an Israeli strike last week.

This is putting Russia straight on a collision path with Israel.

 

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50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Russia's sponsoring of Iran is basically sponsoring of Iran's military branches, which include Hezbollah and PIJ.

 

??? What. The. Hell. :blink:

   How are we sponsoring them? Are we... paying money to them or something? Or we supplied Al-Mukowama with... i don't know... T-90s, Tochkas with nukes, advanced Spetsnaz backflips and throwing knifes? Al-Mukowama in Ushankas when?

 

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

...

Really? Not even free reign in Syria and 

...

   Ummm.. Syria have it's own rulers and they are not our vassals. Or Syrians must ask Israel to allow them to sell their autonomy\freedom to anobody?

 

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

I don't really see how. Israel can assassinate Assad while taking only a political backlash. Russia cannot really retaliate militarily in any way. Only covert or political measures that will be of lower magnitude than the damage inflicted by Assad's removal.

 

So, if we rule Syria, how exactly death of a governor Bashar is going to hurt Russia and russian people? 

 

   Russia cannot retaliate? What kind of parallel world do you exist, did you noticed any conflicts in past 10 years near Russia? The only thing that will stop any possible confrontation between Russian forces and Israel are politicians views and their ideology.

 

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

Then maybe next time Russia can monitor the area and prevent Iranian troops from entrenching very close to Russian forces. Part of the agreement is that Russia will not interfere in Israel's ongoing conflict with Iran, other than as a mediator perhaps.

Russia claims Israel used the Il-20 as a shield in at least 2 of their versions (who knows what they may claim in the next one), but they say nothing about Iran using Russian bases and troops as shields.

 

   I posted a video from one of those "iranian" targets near Lattakia. Vast majority of targets (almost all of them with exception of T4 AB) were not Iranians, but Syrian. Remember when Russian UAV was shot down by Israel and then used Spike NLOS missiles against Syrians not long time ago? This is sort of crap Israel is doing. Change "Russian UAV" for "Hezbollah" and "Iran", and bomb random things, like ammunition for SAA. Iranian help for Hezbollah is primarily money. 

   Nobody stops IDF/IAF from conducting their own press conference with any sorts of data shown, other than empty claims in newspapers.

 

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

And yet they didn't blame the Iraqis for downing their planes, have they?

 

   Ummm. what? I was speaking about specifics of AA work that even high tech forces like US can fuck up and shot down their own jets with IFF and fighters of their ally (British Tornado), even in situation of no enemies in the air. IIRC in both cases Patriot missiles crews were found to be not guilty. Now imagine less technologically advances systems used by less capable army in situation of active airstrikes in EW enviroment.

 

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

What does it matter if they continue literally firing the S-200 in every direction, on ballistic trajectories, hoping the radar would pick up at least some targets along the way? 

They fired like a bunch of retards and it now cost them a Russian plane. 

   1) Any evidence that Syrians were "firing the S-200 in every direction...hoping the radar would pick up at least some targets along the way"? Or more of telepathic abilities?

   2) So if they were bunch of retards and Israel/US always claims that they are (of course, they are second grade humans apperently), why would then IAF conduct strikes near our Air force base, knowing that it is surrounded by retards with AA missiles that fire in every direction randomly? Maybe because they A. didn't thought that they were retards or B. didn't cared for results and risks?

   IAF started this whole situation, being initiators.

 

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

 

Except it's no longer the case. Putin said Israel is not to blame for the incident, while the Russian MoD said that Israel is the only one to blame (even though there were at least a dozen stupid mistakes made by the Russian and Syrian forces alike in that incident).

 

Ummm... 

   "Russian President Vladimir Putin in a telephone conversation informed Syrian President Bashar Assad about the Russian Federation's response to the Il-20 crash. This was reported by the press service of the Kremlin.

In particular, Putin reported on the decision to transfer Syria anti-aircraft missile system S-300."

   Let's assume that he didn't blamed Israel, but in reality authorized S-300s for Syria. Actions speeks louder then diplomatic words.

 

50 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

It will also definitely not prevent such incidents from occurring in the future, unless the VKS start putting IFF equipment on their planes, for the Syrians to see.

It may indeed put some order, and allow Syria to observe its skies better, preventing accidents by eliminating other errors from the chain, but it could also be a marketing nightmare if Israel targets this system. 

S-400 is hot seller today. 

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Shows data from S-400 system radars from Hmeymim. 

 

   Green dot is IL-20M (green dots are for planes verified by IFF "Parol"), yellow dots with numbers 149, 125, 130, 045 are IAF F-16s (numbers assigned by system automatically to F-16s and 158B is S-200 missile).

   S-200 missile was flying at higher altitude than both F-16 and IL-20M (ballistic trajectory). S-200 was flying towards F-16, but because of better radar visibility S-200 missile picked IL-20M.

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6 hours ago, LoooSeR said:

Shows data from S-400 system radars from Hmeymim. 

 

   Green dot is IL-20M (green dots are for planes verified by IFF "Parol"), yellow dots with numbers 149, 125, 130, 045 are IAF F-16s (numbers assigned by system automatically to F-16s and 158B is S-200 missile).

   S-200 missile was flying at higher altitude than both F-16 and IL-20M (ballistic trajectory). S-200 was flying towards F-16, but because of better radar visibility S-200 missile picked IL-20M.

You do realize that all the did was:

 

1) Debunk their previous and very similar presentation, in full, meaning they could release yet another similar presentation that debunks the current one.

 

2) Even further lose credibility, as even they must be aware that these press releases are seen by more than just the Russian public.

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Also, @LoooSeR I forgot to mention. 

Hezbollah's name is Hezbollah. Not "Al Muqawama". 

Muqawama literally means "resistance", which may refer to any terrorist group that sees itself as a resistor to something, thus when you say "Muqawama" you can refer to practically any group that internally uses that name for itself, like Hamas, PIJ, or Fatah, or any of the Syrian terrorist groups for that matter, such as the FSA.

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8 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Also, @LoooSeR I forgot to mention. 

Hezbollah's name is Hezbollah. Not "Al Muqawama". 

Muqawama literally means "resistance", which may refer to any terrorist group that sees itself as a resistor to something, thus when you say "Muqawama" you can refer to practically any group that internally uses that name for itself, like Hamas, PIJ, or Fatah, or any of the Syrian terrorist groups for that matter, such as the FSA.

   Hezbollah is a political party, Al-Mukowama Islamia is what people refer as "military wing of Hezbollah". This organisation is semi-separate from political party and it is called Islamic Resistance of Lebanon. 

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         The victory of the party "An-Nahda" in Tunisia, in terms of Hezbollah was an opportunity for Tunisia to find their own political identity and refuse Westernization. In the same way, Hezbollah welcomed the success of "Muslim Brotherhood" in Egypt, but later abandoned it because of the Syrian issue.  With regard to the events in Libya, "Hezbollah" has supported the overthrow of Gaddafi, but condemned Western intervention. It is worth mentioning that "Hezbollah" has long accused Gaddafi in the disappearance and alleged murder in 1978 of Musa al-Sadr, an important figure of the "Shiite revival" in Lebanon.
       
         Arab Spring and Syria
         "Hezbollah" approach to the assessment of events in the neighboring Syrian is radically different from the one described above, but based on the same criteria. Syria - an essential element of the "resistance front" (al-Jabhat Mumanaa) Iran-Syria-"Hezbollah", despite the fact that on the Syrian-Israeli border for a long time remained calm. 
         The armed fight against Israel until the complete liberation of Lebanese territory (including the Shebaa farms) and aid to the Palestinians in the struggle against the invaders were proclaimed as key objective of "Hezbollah". Therefore, anti-Israeli views are put at the center of patriotic party rhetoric. In this regard, "Hezbollah" is positioning itself not as a Shia party in the multi-confessional Lebanon, but as a nationwide movement. In fact, Hezbollah in Lebanon has formed a complete culture of resistance, supported by competent propaganda efforts: periodic celebrations in memory of the "fallen martyrs", publishing work, aimed at a better understanding of history, folk art contests, social program, etc. It resonates not only in the Shia community, but also attracts other communities of the country.
         The intervention in the armed conflict in Syria, on the one hand, distract "Hezbollah" from its main purpose - the protection of southern Lebanon, and the other side serves this purpose, as a possible regime change in Syria would weaken the party. Syria provides the main transit route for arms from Iran, "Hezbollah".
       

       
         However, this is not the main reason for the decision of "Hezbollah" to take part in the Syrian war. With the deepening of the conflict and the emergence of a growing number of foreign jihadists in Syria, it became apparent that the country was transformed into an arena for regional confrontation. Groups of Islamic radicals, and foregin-controlled FSA/"Moderate" opposition, have threatened the established order of things. Moreover, for "Hezbollah" is vital to prevent their penetration into Lebanese territory. Nasrallah, in one of his speeches, said: "Some insist that Lebanon's problem is that "Hezbollah" went to Syria. I would argue that the problem of Lebanon is that [we] were late.
      <...> If takfiri-terrorists prevail in Syria, we will all be destroyed".    It should be emphasized that "Takfiri" that Nasrallah and other Hezbollah-connected medias mentions, wrongly interpreted by many observers and journalists as the Sunni Islamism. "Hezbollah" maintains relationships with a number of Sunni Islamist groups. Summarizing the Syrian radical groups by "takfiri" term (no "murtads", comrades!), "Hezbollah" thus draws attention to the threat posed by these groups to religious minorities (including Shiites). Support for Syria by "Hezbollah" can not be considered only in the interfaith dimension. Mukowama actions and Hezbollah involvement in any way is not a support of the Alawite community, as many brain-dead journalists and sell-out medias tries to show it.  
         The factor of the need to protect Shiite shrines are used to mobilize the Lebanese community (and by some degree Iraqi shias as well), but, in general the party avoids movement to inter-confessional conflict, especially in Lebanon. The main motive of "Hezbollah" is not religious, but political. It is vitally important priority remains the preservation of the "axis of resistance" and the current balance of forces in the region. Therefore, the party comes to the Syrian events otherwise than to the "Arab Spring" as a whole: not as a confrontation between the people and the yet another tyrant regime, but as the United States  Israel and their allies attempts to change the regime in Syria. Following the logic of "Hezbollah", problems could be solved with the help of internal reforms Syria problem, while the intervention of Western countries, pressing their interests, must be prevented. In this context, "Hezbollah" has repeatedly stressed the readiness of Assad to reform and dialogue with the opposition.
         For a long period of "Hezbollah" refused to acknowledge their involvement in the conflict while expressing support for the Assad and Syrian government  with words only (or nearly words only). 
         In 2011, Nasrallah defined the party's position in relation to the events in Syria as:
      priority is stability and security; call for the Syrian people to choose the path of dialogue, rather than confrontation with the government, and to allow him to carry out the necessary reforms; non-interference in the Lebanese internal affairs of Syria; denial of sanctions promoted by the West and imposed on Lebanon.    Leaders of "Hezbollah" has repeatedly stressed their belief that the conflict will became long war, and hoped to avoid direct participation.    INTERVENTION IN CONFLICT will be covered in 5th posts in this thread.  
       
         2. "Military Wing" of Hezbollah [WIP]
       

       
         There is no military unit in Hezbollah political party structure per say, the armed organisation that is usually refered as Hezbollah is a separate structure called Lebanese/Islamic Resistance or Al-Mouqowama/Al-Mukowama/Al-Muqawama, created because of southern Lebanon occupation by Israel. Al-Mukowama continue to grow and improve and currently it is one of most combat effective forces (relative to their size) in ME.
         Al-Mukowama is basically smaller and poorer version of IDF and In fact in 2000s most of Al-Mukowama equipment was Israeli-made. Recruitment is conscript-based, with big number of active reservists (periodically going to training facilities). Officers are usually somebody with plenty of combat experience, some of which gone trough training in Iran (including specialists like ATGM gunners and etc.).
         From 2006 Al-Muqawama was working on their Armor branch of forces, which they revealed during later stage of Syrian war. Resistance also have pretty seroius insititute of military advisors, number of which were working in Iraq with shia paramilitaries, were spotted multiple times in different parts of Syria and rumors say that they are involved in Yemen conflict, although i have no photo or video evidence to confirm such claims.
         Overall numbers are unknown, but counting reservists it may reach 40k. Primarly Al-Muqawama forces are light infantry, which is well equipped by ME arab countries standarts. Each member usually have 2 sets of equipment with wood/forest/green and desert camos (usually locally produced), protection (bodyarmor and helmets), ammocarriers (plenty of old Israel gear copies) and so on. Squads have internal organisation similar to army units - grenadiers/infantrymens/sharpshooter with DMR/MG gunner, medic and so on. Tankers, Marksmans, RPG gunners - all have basic infantry training as well, they can be seen carrying some version of AK as secondary weapon. Resistance also have dedicated AT units, reconnaissance, AA, artillery. As i already said - this is pocket version of actual army without Navy and air forces.
         Currently Al-Muqawama have bases not only in Lebanon, but in Syria as well (Qusayr/Al-Quseir for example).
       

       
         3. Why it is allowed to exist in parallel to LAF [WIP]
         The simple question why inside of one country effectively 2 armies are allowed to exist can be answered in this 2 ways - Lebanon is not 1 country, it is more of a collection of communities that share borders, so it can have more than 1 armed groups that exist officially (How about Lebanese communists armed wing? Yes, they do exist)... or those 2 armies are doing what other army can't and second answer is something that i feel is closer to reality. 
         Because of sophisticated interal policy of Lebanon state, LAF to start to act needs approval from several interested groups (which plenty of times have conficting views), which lead to LAF being slow to respond or even incapable to do something that situation may require. And this is where Resistance comes into play - it can be used to do the job that official army should have been doing, but can't because it may start serious tensions in Lebanon. Primary example - Syria, through Syria-Lebanon border plenty of terrorists groups are trying to get into country and LAF is doing almost nothing to prevent it, which led to Al-Muqawama cleaning border and fight in areas in Syria, close to Lebanon (Arsal, Beeka, 1st and 2nd Qalamoun, battle for Zabadani being best examples).
         It appears that Lebanon intelligence service - the G2 - is closelly connected to Al-Muqowama. Abbas Ibragim, the head of G2, was once reported by Al-Manar as coordinator of Army and Al-Muqowama actions in recent years. On 12 December of 2015 his nephew (Mohammed Hussein Ibrahim) was KIA in Syria in SW part of Aleppo province, which also shows some connections between him and Al-Mukowama. Another interesting example of possible connection between LAF and Resistance is Saudi Arabia canceling military aid for LAF about a year ago, which Saudi officials explained as punishment of LAF for support of Al-Mukowama.
        Also:



       

      Lebanese President Michel Aoun with Hezbollah MP Mohammad Raad surrounded by Al-Muqowama fighters at a Hezbollah site in South Lebanon.
       
       
         4. Iran - Al-Muqawama connection [WIP]
         As i already noted, some Resistance personal gone trough training in Iran, for example - several Kornet ATGM teams before 2006 Lebanon war. It appears that in recent years Resistance advisors work with some of shia units that also have Iranian support, primarly in Iraq. There is not much information on this, but small pieces are getting to public. There was an event several years back when Iranian general was KIA during Israely strikes on Al-Mukowama base at Lebanon-Israel border. Another point - recently shown Al-Muqawama AT teams vehicles are armed with double Kornet launchers, which were spotted in Iran, AFAIK.
         Most blatant example of Iran-Hezbollah connections is this recently appeared photo of now dead Al-Muqawama officer Syed Aqeel Fahas with IRGC General Qasem Soleimani.
       

       
    • By LoooSeR
      Hello, my friends and Kharkovites, take a sit and be ready for your brains to start to work - we are going to tell you a terrible secret of how to tell apart Soviet tanks that actually works like GLORIOUS T-80 and The Mighty T-72 from Kharkovites attempt to make a tank - the T-64. Many of capitalists Westerners have hard time understanding what tank is in front of them, even when they know smart words like "Kontakt-5" ERA. Ignoramus westerners!
       
       
         Because you are all were raised in several hundreds years old capitalism system all of you are blind consumer dummies, that need big noisy labels and shiny colorful things to be attached to product X to be sold to your ignorant heads and wallets, thats why we will need to start with basics. BASICS, DA? First - how to identify to which tank "family" particular MBT belongs to - to T-64 tree, or T-72 line, or Superior T-80 development project, vehicles that don't have big APPLE logo on them for you to understand what is in front of you. And how you can do it in your home without access to your local commie tank nerd? 
       
       
         Easy! Use this Putin approved guide "How to tell appart different families of Soviet and Russian tanks from each other using simple and easy to spot external features in 4 steps: a guide for ignorant western journalists and chairborn generals to not suck in their in-depth discussions on the Internet".
       
       
       
      Chapter 1: Where to look, what to see.
       
      T-64 - The Ugly Kharkovite tank that doesn't work 
       
         We will begin with T-64, a Kharkovite attempt to make a tank, which was so successful that Ural started to work on their replacement for T-64 known as T-72. Forget about different models of T-64, let's see what is similar between all of them.
       
       
       

       
       
         
       
       
      T-72 - the Mighty weapon of Workers and Peasants to smash westerners
       
         Unlike tank look-alike, made by Kharkovites mad mans, T-72 is true combat tank to fight with forces of evil like radical moderate barbarians and westerners. Thats why we need to learn how identify it from T-64 and you should remember it's frightening lines!
       

       
       
       
      The GLORIOUS T-80 - a Weapon to Destroy and Conquer bourgeois countries and shatter westerners army
       
         And now we are looking at the Pride of Party and Soviet army, a true tank to spearhead attacks on decadent westerners, a tank that will destroy countries by sucking their military budgets and dispersing their armies in vortex of air, left from high-speed charge by the GLORIOUS T-80!

      The T-80 shooting down jets by hitting them behind the horizont 
          
    • By LoooSeR
      T-14 ARMATA 
      (edited)
              This thread is about glorious russian MBT T-14, known as "Armada", "T-95", "black eagle", "T-99" and other stupid Western names given to Object 148 (T-14 in some recent documents). Here is number of images connected to that vehicle.
       

      Official model of unknown "artillery vehicle". Yeah, Putin, we know that this is T-14. Note Gatling gun on turret right side.
       
      Artist impression of T-14 based on known model, by Fyodor Podporin. 
       

      T-14 will use Relikt ERA, which is considerable improvement over Kontakt-5 in resisting to tandem HEAT warheads and EFPs.

       
      Side skirts would be thicker on a real vehicle, i think. Relikt have AFAIK bigger size than Kontakt-5 ERA build-in blocks.

       
       
       
       
       
      Whole album with renders: 
      http://imgur.com/a/8Tn9b
       
      Video of same render from same artist:

       
       
            People expect that tank would have turret weapon system like what you see on the BMP-3 "Bakhcha-U" turret - a lot of weapons in one turret for one gunner to work with. T-14 is rumored to be equipped with 30 (or even 57) mm autocannon, 4-6 barrel gatling type MG/HMG, new 125 (2A82) or even 152 mm (2A83) smoothbore cannons. Turret is unmanned, crew of 3 would be located in frontal part of hull, behind very serious frontal armor inside of compartment, well protected from all directions. Cannon would be loaded by new autoloading device. I hope that Burevestnik is working on them, those guys managed to make 100 mm Naval gun with RoF of 300 shots per minute.
       
            I really like how turret looks, but i don't understand why there is such a big turret "busket" for unmanned turret with all ammo placed inside of hull in special armored housing. Also, i don't see gunner sight and proposed FSC radar on 3D model (i assume that panoramic sight is for commander). Laser sensors on 3D model are from T-90A variant of "Shtora".
       
            Some officials mentioned works on new active protection system, that consist of powerfull radar station, that can work on "long ranges" and engage incoming projectiles (missiles) with that gatling MG. Will this system survive development stage and be presented on serial tanks is unknown. Although turret for T-15 Armata-based IFV already was shown with new APS "Afganit".
       
            If you pay attention you may see that artist used T-80 rollers for Armata chassis, and this is not a mistake - according to some sources Armata heavy chassis will use T-80 or T-80-like rollers to save weight. And looking at rear part of that tank you may notice a engine deck from gas-turbine equipped version of the T-80, which can be mistake becuase MoD want Armata with new ~1500 HP diesel engine. 
    • By Darjeeling
      Greetings, I have been studying in the battle of Afrin since it started. Yet I still lack some information that can clearly analyse the opposite plan, war progress and order of battle of both side (Turkey army clear but YPG isn’t).
       
      I am spectacular interested in the process of the battle as it revealed the true strength of the 2nd largest NATO army. Also, the performance of YPG/YPJ militant against the regular modern army is meaningful to modern warfare study too.
       
      Hence, any kind man can help me on this field or even just give out a reading list?

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