Jump to content
Sturgeon's House
Sturgeon

The "Toxn Is Wrong About Hog Hunting" Thread

Recommended Posts

That's collimatrix, actually.

 

 

They are hogs, not elephants. I consider .223 to be perfectly acceptable, and 6.8 a bit gratuitous (just because it's expensive).

On the ground? Yeah, as much as porker hunters in Europe can on running animals with Blasers and Aimpoints. In a helo, well, much less accurate, of course, but again we're talking more population control than hunting. The helos are useful for certain things, and ethical kills are still the norm. After all, hard for a hog to outrun a chopper.

 

 

 

Um... OK. I'm the weirdo. Whatever.

 

 

Well, as previously mentioned, this is pest control. Obviously, they should do the best they can, but at the end of the day you gotta kill those hogs or else.

Cool, we seem to have reached substantial agreement on the underlying issues. From here, it seems as if we simply disagree as to whether the exact scenario is 'doing the best you can'.

 

Per elephant hunting, .375 H&H would be considered way underpowered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know man. Those dudes come across like they're more interested in killing a living thing with a machine gun than the ecological benefits of hog control. This might not be the case, bit their video put me off.

Like I said, I don't care about the optics or the night vision or the caliber. They just come off as the sort who'd shoot buffalo from a moving train if this were 150 years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Here is for talking about how Toxn is wrong about hog hunting. Let's begin. ;)

 

 

Who told you that you could not aim a machine gun?

 

Aim as in 'hit a palm-sized spot on the animal's flank'? No, you can't really do that. Certainly you can't from the side of a helo.

 

I doubt you've ever shot a machine gun, as they certainly are that accurate.

 

Also, I don't understand, how is the vital hit probability for a machine gun somehow lower than it is for an AR-15, both being fired from helos? Given that helicopter hunting is useful for culling pigs for a variety of reasons (including that you can follow the group more easily, and also drive them into other hunters on the ground), precisely which weapon would you recommend them use instead?

 

Dealt with above.

Why are you under the impression that they DON'T target individuals when hog hunting? Of course they do, especially sows.

 

 

Not sure how this is relevant.

 

Because it directly counters your assertion that bolt guns wouldn't cut it for this sort of work.

 

You could probably do it with sharp sticks, too, but that would be less efficient. So, do you care about efficiency or using more domestic looking weapons?

 

Hey buddy, if you'd listened you'd have noticed that I said "I don't even feel comfortable telling these guys how to hunt, given the destruction those pigs can cause, so I don't know where you get off doing so". Not YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO BECAUSE SOMETHING SOMETHING JINGOISM.

 

Go on, tell me how non-judgy we are when regarding the circumstances of others. You pointing out my distance from events is simply a plea to ignore my arguments without regard to their merits.

 

I have addressed literally every single one of your arguments. And you STILL have no idea what you're talking about.

The reasons you described above:

 

-Not taking aimed shots, wrong.

 

"aimed"

 

So, what, you think they bought those fancy thermal scopes for fucks and giggles?

-Aren't apportioning shots equally, wrong.

 

Tell me again how they are making sure to strike their mark here.

 

BY PUTTING THE CROSSHAIR ON THE TARGET.

 

-Aren't using a caliber suitable for the job, wrong. (How in fuck is .308 Winchester not adequate for pigs?)

 

Weren't we specifically talking about 6.8? In any case, wouldn't .308 be considered marginal for the larger boars?

 

M240Ls are in 7.62/.308, and no. .223 and up for pigs.

 

So, Tox, please tell me who in this virtual room said "NOPE, THERE'S NO OBLIGATION TO DO A GOOD JOB AND REDUCE SUFFERING, LET'S CAPTURE ALL THE PIGS AND GLEEFULLY TORTURE THEM TO DEATH"? Because this is getting ridiculous, you're tilting at some version of me that bathes in the blood of the innocent or something, cut it out.

 

1. You do bathe in blood, as is required by our ancient laws.

2. Yes, we're arguing about you now, rather than the nimrods on the chopper. Don't project here.

 

You started talking about me, holmes.

"Everyone with a pulse can see is silly", you mean everyone with a cozy apartment who's never fired a gun or dealt with animal control, much less hogs.

 

Strange how so many of our little clan are coming out of the woodwork on this one. Are you really blind to the idea that people who aren't effete apartment-dwellers might find the whole thing sort of disgusting? Is it really only two sides here: the know-nothings and the mature adults? Because it doesn't seem that way to me, at least not in this case.

 

You're pretty blind to the fact that the only person here who's actually dealt with the problem in question thinks you sound like a fucking idiot right now.

 

 

Let me spell it out for you: Hogs destroy everything. They tear up the earth until it looks like the surface of the Moon, they shit and piss in waterways until everything dies from disease, they eat everything, they transmit disease to livestock, they ruin entire ecosystems. It is cull the hogs, or watch your ranch shrivel up and die, and all the land around it.

 

Take all the hobos in New York, and give them an unlimited supply of cocaine and a backhoe for each, and they couldn't do as much damage. That is how bad the problem is.

So, basically, you're sitting here mouthing off to the Korean War vet at the local veterans' home about how he didn't kill the Chinese humanely enough. It's absolutely absurd to hold the position you do to anyone who's even brushed up against the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know man. Those dudes come across like they're more interested in killing a living thing with a machine gun than the ecological benefits of hog control. This might not be the case, bit their video put me off.

Like I said, I don't care about the optics or the night vision or the caliber. They just come off as the sort who'd shoot buffalo from a moving train if this were 150 years ago.

 

If you think that's not how a lot of hunters are, then I guess you haven't met many.

Humans like killin' stuff. I'm OK with those guys enjoying killing hogs, just like I'm OK with Navy SEALs enjoying killing terrorists. It kinda creeps me out when I brush up against it, but that's because I'm doughy soft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also note that Toxn didn't quote himself calling all helicopter hog hunters "sociopaths" (which, intentional or not, makes my use of the word sound like an unfair characterization of his position):

 

They're not doing anything to help the brand, then. Because spraying down a bunch of animals from a helo falls pretty squarly into sociopathic territory as far as I'm concerned.

 

If they wanted to do animal control then there are a bunch of other ways to go about it - up to and including hiring full-time hunters to eliminate herds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me spell it out for you: Hogs destroy everything. They tear up the earth until it looks like the surface of the Moon, they shit and piss in waterways until everything dies from disease, they eat everything, they transmit disease to livestock, they ruin entire ecosystems. It is cull the hogs, or watch your ranch shrivel up and die, and all the land around it.

 

Take all the hobos in New York, and give them an unlimited supply of cocaine and a backhoe for each, and they couldn't do as much damage. That is how bad the problem is.

So, basically, you're sitting here mouthing off to the Korean War vet at the local veterans' home about how he didn't kill the Chinese humanely enough. It's absolutely absurd to hold the position you do to anyone who's even brushed up against the problem.

You seem to have a weird idea of my position. More, you seem to want something specific from me here that I just can't wrap my head around.

 

I've argued for efficiency, but you ignore the other options I raised (including the one that actually has a chance of solving the problem).

 

I argued for doing the best you can give the need to remove the animals, but you don't seem like you'd be content until I agree to just let people do whatever they want. And when I point this out you seem to think that I'm painting you as some sort of blood-lusting savage.

 

I've argued for ways in which the same exact thing could be accomplished in a less controversial fashion, but you seem to want me to endorse this very specific option instead.

 

All of this makes me think we're talking about a third issue. And I bet it's got fuck-all to do with hog hunting and everything to do with allowing people to have their toys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also note that Toxn didn't quote himself calling all helicopter hog hunters "sociopaths" (which, intentional or not, makes my use of the word sound like an unfair characterization of his position):

 

If this was neglected during my multi-quote session above, then I apologise. Please read the words though, and tell me if I'm describing all helicopter hog hunters with the term 'spraying down'. Because if that's how the lot of them are doing it - lots of poorly-aimed shots and rapid switching between targets - then I'm not sure how you could defend it in the way you have above.

 

And it is proving necessary to use helicopters to actually do that, hence why they legalized it in the first place.

And pointing out the tourist potential (as the folk in the video did) had nothing to do with this? Or is legislation suddenly made with the best of intent and using the best available practice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, nice try on shifting the conversation to gun control, but this is all about killing the hogs, mate.

Then why are all the other options so distasteful to you? Do you really think that this is the only way forwards? Do you even think this is the best way forwards?

 

What happened to the rest of the ecologist's arsenal that 'shoot them from the air with an LMG' became the one true option?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the other options distasteful (poisoning is stupid because it's indiscriminate, not because it's icky... Although it certainly is that, too)? Where did I say that? Somebody wants to hunt hogs with a spear, be my guest - in fact I know a guy who does just that. It's funny though that a lot of hog hunters started out using leverguns and other more traditional weapons, but found they needed more. Plus, it's not this way in SA, but here in Texas and Louisiana, your AR-15 IS the "normal" weapon, used for deer, target shooting, home defense, whatever. It is just as silly to suggest someone not use their AR as it would be to say they can't use bolt actions with scopes, only leverguns with iron sights.

I think it's funny that you are A-OK with hunting elephants from a helo, but not hogs. Why not? They are useful for the same reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think that's not how a lot of hunters are, then I guess you haven't met many.

Humans like killin' stuff. I'm OK with those guys enjoying killing hogs, just like I'm OK with Navy SEALs enjoying killing terrorists. It kinda creeps me out when I brush up against it, but that's because I'm doughy soft.

The majority of hunters I've met and know don't act like this. Up in Alaska my friends hunt for food. It is a survival situation which is the difference between having meat in the fridge and eating rice and pilot bread all winter. And down here my friends and I have psyched ourselves up that we are solemn friends of the earth and the animal gives its life to is as a gift and yada yada. Yeah it's bullshit but it fills the view of Fair Chase.

Now I've shot vermin and predators as well. And for me personally I'm not giggling like a schoolboy when I do it.

Toxn no doubt has his own stories of taking the Cogswell & Harrison double rifle, his personal native guide and string of porters out into the bush in search of the Elephant Graveyard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh. Taking the AR out hunting up here is still kind of frowned upon and makes the guy doing it come off as Elmer Fudd who doesn't know how to aim.

Different cultures.

You guys do have game ranches down there as well which is another thing we look down our noses at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The majority of hunters I've met and know don't act like this. Up in Alaska my friends hunt for food. It is a survival situation which is the difference between having meat in the fridge and eating rice and pilot bread all winter. And down here my friends and I have psyched ourselves up that we are solemn friends of the earth and the animal gives its life to is as a gift and yada yada. Yeah it's bullshit but it fills the view of Fair Chase.

Now I've shot vermin and predators as well. And for me personally I'm not giggling like a schoolboy when I do it.

Toxn no doubt has his own stories of taking the Cogswell & Harrison double rifle, his personal native guide and string of porters out into the bush in search of the Elephant Graveyard.

Um... OK. To me that's really weird, and I grew up in Maryland FFS. You shouldn't have to justify enjoying hunting, it's what humans do. Also not really what I expected from Alaskans, but maybe they've been oppressed by the grizzlies too long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh. Taking the AR out hunting up here is still kind of frowned upon and makes the guy doing it come off as Elmer Fudd who doesn't know how to aim.

Different cultures.

You guys do have game ranches down there as well which is another thing we look down our noses at.

That's ironic, as even a budget AR-15 will shoot rings around a Marlin 336.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since we've somewhat conflated issues here (something I am completely guilty of), let's look specifically at helicopter hunting:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89UliEiQQyU

 

Not a fan of the music, but the shots look good and there seems to be follow-up on downed animals (even if minimal)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubt19wLNcKM

 

This is what people object to, I think. Shitty music, a plethora of gopros strapped onto everything, taking fairly long distance shots, shooting through brush, no follow-up. Did these guys kill anything? Did they wound anything and then fly away? I don't think they know or care.

 

Edit: this should answer your elephant-hunting question as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second video is Nick Leghorn, a writer for TTAG. Tells you everything you need to know. These are the guys who "recreated" the Charlie Hebdo attack in a shoot house with paintball-armed victims, who obviously got slaughtered.

They are not so bright, is what I am saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LARGE native population in Alaska. So a lot of traditional views of the land and the people and animals. The whites who live up there adopt a lot of the same views.

For instance killing a moose is a BIG thing. Yes everyone is happy but it's because there is now 2000 pounds of meat in the freezer. The younger hunter is then obligated to give portions to the elders and whatnot.

Conversely, one of our friends who used to work for the cannery had the unofficial job of shooting nuisance brown bears. Everyone liked him but they resented the fact that he - as a white man - was shooting THEIR bears, even though the fucking thing was tearing up the village. We helped him skin and decapitate the thing in 80 degree heat which wasn't pleasant. (80 degrees in Bristol Bay equals 110 elsewhere).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LARGE native population in Alaska. So a lot of traditional views of the land and the people and animals. The whites who live up there adopt a lot of the same views.

For instance killing a moose is a BIG thing. Yes everyone is happy but it's because there is now 2000 pounds of meat in the freezer. The younger hunter is then obligated to give portions to the elders and whatnot.

Conversely, one of our friends who used to work for the cannery had the unofficial job of shooting nuisance brown bears. Everyone liked him but they resented the fact that he - as a white man - was shooting THEIR bears, even though the fucking thing was tearing up the village. We helped him skin and decapitate the thing in 80 degree heat which wasn't pleasant. (80 degrees in Bristol Bay equals 110 elsewhere).

Oh, huh, neat. That's definitely a different cultural approach, and one I thought was pretty much the domain of Hollywood and overdramatic hippies, at least these days.

Don't get me wrong, hunters aren't bloodthirsty where I come from, but they go out looking to kill an animal, and they're very proud when they do. I've known many kids raised in that lifestyle who get super excited when hunting time rolls around, because it's their favorite thing to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second video is Nick Leghorn, a writer for TTAG. Tells you everything you need to know. These are the guys who "recreated" the Charlie Hebdo attack in a shoot house with paintball-armed victims, who obviously got slaughtered.

They are not so bright, is what I am saying.

 

So which one represents the majority here? If it's the former, then our quibbles over ethics etc. are minimal. If the latter, then I'm sure you can understand my distaste.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So which one represents the majority here? If it's the former, then our quibbles over ethics etc. are minimal. If the latter, then I'm sure you can understand my distaste.

No, idea, but if I could make being an idiot illegal, I would.

BTW, I haven't watched much of either video because mobile. Pretty sure I've seen the Leghorn one before, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, huh, neat. That's definitely a different cultural approach, and one I thought was pretty much the domain of Hollywood and overdramatic hippies, at least these days.

Don't get me wrong, hunters aren't bloodthirsty where I come from, but they go out looking to kill an animal, and they're very proud when they do. I've known many kids raised in that lifestyle who get super excited when hunting time rolls around, because it's their favorite thing to do.

I won't pretend like everyone behaves that way. But there is a certain bar of expectation set, even if half the hunters spend too much time at the bar.

Again. I'm up here and we don't have a feral hog problem.

If I lived down there I might feel differently about using machine guns on them.

I'm just not convinced it is the most efficient approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×