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Scav last won the day on January 7 2019

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  1. The 3800kg weight is not given for the L/44 as on leo 2, but the LR version(s). Not sure, but could be that it's the same for this: https://web.archive.org/web/20061103224651/http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/index.php?fid=1448&lang=3&pdb=1 So, 150kg added.... From? Things that changed (MRS, MG mount) aren't very significant in weight. The Strv 121/122 doc has weights given for the 122 BTW, not the 121. Note on the Pz 87 site: they list 56.5t (presumably because their tanks are C tech).
  2. Comparing proto to production, yes it will matter....
  3. I suggest using the factory brochure since it's from 1982 and that's going to be more accurate than those webpages. The current version is going to weigh more as a result of a heavier barrel, none of those seem to have this, so they are most likely wrong.
  4. We don't know the exact dimensions of the holes, though you can sort of get close with pixel measuring on the inside, but that isn't particularly relevant because the gun cradle isn't just that block, it's also the thicker part of the barrel right in front of the block and right behind it. In the Rh120 brochure from Rheinmetall I posted a while ago the "gun port" dimensions are given: 730x500mm, thus while the gun cradle itself is 728mm wide we can surmise the height is close to 500m, after you know the rough dimensions some guessing of hole sizes, you can get a decent idea on how much volume it has. Total weight is 3655kg with mantlet. Without it's 3015kg. Where do you get 3780 from? Keep in mind that weight can change over production, the 122's gun might not be identical to the original leo 2's. The section at the bottom seems to have been dropped and I'm not sure which 2AV mantlet this is.... This one? Or this one?
  5. Why all this guessing? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4xitrrBUDsYckRhSXNNSXpKbkE/view?pli=1 Gun cradle weight of 595kg, and all the other stuff you can probably use translate for (this is most likely for Strv 122 as well, not Strv 121). So gun cradle on 122 is steel, not titanium, weight in this location doesn't matter as much as it's right on the pivot point, inertia and balance doesn't change a whole lot because of it.
  6. No need to guess: Quite easily 64mm, though I'm not sure the entire hatch is that thick considering there's optics on it and they have to lead down somewhere, so maybe there's a cutout that allows you to push up the other end (haven't bothered to get inside pictures, so purely speculation).
  7. @Domichan Thanks for those pictures, still not sure though... DM53 looks very close. Nice pics, from my measurements it's the same length as M829A3 though the sabot looks a bit different as you pointed out. If we assume the core goes halfway into the windshield (which you can actually see fairly well, it's very thin), it's about 785mm long. Though I have to agree with @Militarysta, it very much looks like some kind of mockup or steel shell. Maybe you could hang around long enough to watch them move it to see how heavy it is
  8. That could easily have been a mistranslation or error on the part of the Brits writing it down. As if Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 were devoid of ballistic holes.... that driver's hatch, lack of a gun mantlet on CR1 (with thinner composite armour behind it as well), TOGS hole on the side and equally large challenger 2 mantlet they ended up adopting.... Where exactly do you see that information? Are there more pages that weren't posted? FYI, KVT was built in 1989, so it's entirely possible they initially thought they could make the D armour an internal package and only in testing realised they couldn't do it without adding more armour externally. Besides, how would you explain that massive increase in protection in barely 3-4 years time when a much smaller increase (B to C) took much longer and (atleast according to the Brits) failed? Regarding the required protection values: in the Hayne's manual for CR2 the author remarks that the M1A1 Block 2 (M1A2) with DU had 15% better KE protection than the CR2 over a narrow frontal arc. Judging by the Swedish trials we can guesstimate the protection of M1A2 at around 600-640mm for the turret front, so CR2 would be around 510-540mm. So, you're saying this is them guessing. Then why do you also point out that it "could stop LKE1", that would be an even higher protection figure. Where did you read that late 2A4s were heavier than C tech ones? Finding information on any late 2A4s, including C is hard enough, let alone getting a comparison between the 1988 and 1991 models. Only info I could find was data on the Pz 87, most of which were C and it weighs around 56.5t. HOT-2 does not reach 1200mm, that's HOT-3. HOT-2 maxes out around 1000mm. Putting this into perspective: M1A2 had 2t of DU added to bump the protection up from around 400-450mm (still "debated") to 600-640mm (while CE remained the same if not slightly decreased), out of 939mm LOS. That's only for the turret front mind you, not even including turret side or hull front. Yet, somehow, this new armour package that comes at "almost no weight penalty", barely four years after the latest armour package, reaches 600mm and 1200mm CE out of 860mm LOS while also including a protection increase for turret side and hull front? Without actual proof this is pretty incredulous. Did I miss some pages? Where was this listed? I mean, naturally different types of ammunition react differently to certain armour types, but I fail to see how 400mm+ steel can result in less than that in actual protection. The steel APFSDS rounds were very poor against any form of composite armour compared to actual long rods, so it wouldn't surprise me that even 3BM26 failed to penetrate M1 frontal armour, let alone CR1 or leopard 2. If the 1991 batch was D tech, there was only 3-4 years between C and D, and the increase wouldn't be 20% but 43% (600/420). I severely doubt that 1.3x efficiency against APFSDS rounds, perhaps they're talking about steel or tungsten slug APFSDS, but certainly not tungsten/DU alloy long rods from the mid 80s. Where did you read that it was rejected...? Bit at a loss for words here, is there some other place more information gets published? It could, but then we'd solely be talking about the frontal armour, not including the sides etc, which is what the British appear to be talking about (hence the 350mm and 420mm). That's what makes it appear to ridiculous, how can you get 600mm KE and 1200mm CE in a 60° frontal arc (what the Brits were using) when barely 12 years earlier they reached 350mm? This is not even including the front of the hull. Plus, the only reason why it that 2AV version could reach such high figures is that it had lots of steel in the array , which in turn takes up lots of space, this leaves little room for CE protection or fancy materials. So, while you can technically reach 600mm KE, the CE protection in turn cannot also be so high. That's specifically hard to do with passive armour, even more if they didn't use a completely new material (like ceramics which is claimed to be utilised on C tech). The wedges on the other hand are an entirely different situation, here you have a (substantial) LOS increase along with materials optimised to work against CE (and the additional space also helps massively against KE). Definitely the most likely option here.
  9. You don't honestly think that out of ~700mm LOS (60° arc....) they can get 600mm KE and 1200mm CE right? Even assuming this is from direct front that 1200mm CE is just absurd in combination with the already very high 600mm KE. Not to mention the supposed "no weight penalty"..... This most probably refers to the wedges, those can reach the figures quite comfortably, and considering this is an early statement they were probably being carefull with their estimates. The date even corresponds with 2A5 adoption and not the 1992 leopard 2A4 batches. But to think this talks about some kind of internal armour is ludicrous, what are they using? Fairy dust? D type exists, sure, but in what form is the question.
  10. I guess a picture for proof isn't possible? So, this isn't correct? Everything besides the fins matches 105mm DM53 more closely than 120mm DM33 though... I know it's just a schematic, but .... Also, in that X-ray picture you posted, there's one frontal tip segment, on the schematic there's two. It could be that the first one was completely destroyed on impact and isn't visible for that reason, or it could be there was only one.
  11. I know this section is important, but the design in that schematic does not match production rounds. I've seen that before, and they probably used a similar design on many of their ammunitions (105 and 120 alike). If you were to look at the schematic's tip and the tip on actual production ammunition you'll see how much thicker it is on the latter. Ontop of that, the schematic shows a smooth middle part of the sabot, production DM33 does not have that, it has a small step in it. It might be a schematic for DM33, but it looks closer to what 105 DM53 ended up like. Either way, the design changed from the schematic quite a bit.
  12. Why wouldn't it? It would prevent shrapnel, small projectiles and possibly even APFSDS from riding up the armour and continuing to hit the cupola or whatever's behind it. The Brits found this to be an issue on the Chieftain, so it makes sense that these plates could prevent it and serve such a purpose. You mean the side armour that was cut open from above? If they for some reason decided to increase the height of the modules (like you propose by saying they didn't bother with adding a single plate on top to cover the three different modules, yet they are somehow taller than the ones on the 2A4) then why wasn't this done for the sides? I don't get it, why would this one composite package be taller than the rest and stick out? Why would this one package not be covered by a single plate to smooth it over? And even weirder is why it was only done on the back of the composite package and also covered the area behind the composite package.... If those stepped plates indicate there's composite right underneath then they extended the composite package backwards and left an area infront of them..... Maybe I'm misuderstanding what you meant, but those plates definitely do not cover the entire composite package... There's a decent amount of space between the loader's optic and the turret front interior wall, yet these stepped bits go right up to it. (It's a 2A4, but the loader's periscope didn't change) So....... No, I don't think it has anything to do with the armour package honestly. Is that the fuse of the warhead stuck in the mantlet? Boy, that was lucky, that mantlet is thin as all hell..... I imagine they can put something in there, but it's still rather little material in the way of that RPG.... He's right to smile.
  13. Ah yes, that picture. We don't know if that's DM33 120mm though. The Hülsendeckel on there isn't on production DM33 rounds, those also have two different kind of fins it seems like, one type like the ones shown here, but others are longer: Also note that the attachment of the case to the sabot is different, as well as the tip being substantially thicker on production ones. Closer to this diagram: I'm not sure, but the schematic you posted looks more like that experimental 105mm DM53: Granted, the fins are different, but the tip looks much closer, the rings on the sabot also match it closer, on 120mm DM33 there's a large open band that is for attaching the casing to it. I kinda wonder why they would have a sharp tip inside of the fatter steel tip though, the point of that thicker tip in the first place was improved performance against composite armour like on the T-series, having a sharp tip underneath that would partially defeat the purpose.....
  14. The cupolas (hatches really) could still be damaged, and in the case of leopard 2E etc, a round that penetrates this roof module could jam the hatch, a stepped plate like this prevents this from happening. Not saying it's the main reason, but it could explain why it's only present infront of the hatch. I don't see how having the armour bulge out on the roof would be cost saving, while having all the other armour not do this. Unless only this part of the armour was changed, I don't see why it would be done. The cut seems to indicate the opposite to me, that the cavity is still the same and that these three plates were welded on later. On the original leopard 2 the roof over the cavity was flush, so unless they made the armour packages slightly bigger/taller (I don't see why this would be done just for this section), I would expect the same for the packages on the 2A5. Thanks! I don't have FB, so please do post any docs or pictures he posts regarding this topic, it'd be quite interesting to see. Note quite the same package (MEXAS-M I think?) but the 1A6BE was originally supposed to bring the leopard 1A5s up to a level sufficient to be used against RPG-7 equipped insurgents: More pictures here:http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/robert_de_craecker/leopard_1a5_abl/index.php?Page=3 I doubt it can stop more than early RPG-7s on the hull though, perhaps more on the turret. Regarding the base armour, it's hardly worse than what the leopard 2 uses for it's steel shell, the composite cavities are what gives that tank it's protection too.... Add enough of these packages to the outside of a leo 1 and I reckon you can get to similar protection levels.
  15. Looks like M322, or Slpprj 95 in Swedish service. http://www.imisystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/120mm-M322-APFSDS-T-Cartridge-.pdf Also, @BkktMkkt what are you basing the tip of DM33 off? Atleast according to the patent, it has a flat tip.
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