The Challenger 1 has enough armor to stop a 125 mm APFSDS at about 1,000 metres distance. Given that the British estimated a penetration performance of 475 mm steel armor at 0 metres for a 125 mm tungsten-cored APFSDS round, it seems likely that the Challenger 1 has 400-450 mm protection vs KE; this also would match the statement that the Challenger 1 has protection roughly equal to a T-64BV, T-72AV or T-80BV tank.
The Challenger 2 design - not necessarily identical to the production model - at some point of time was to have improved hull armor; there is no mention of upgraded turret armor (at that time).
That leads to:
XM1 Abrams - resists 115 mm APFSDS at 800 - 1,200 metres (official requirement), penetrated by 125 mm APFSDS even at 4,000 metres (British claims)
Leopard 2 - turret resists 115 mm APFSDS at 1,000 metres & 125 mm APFSDS at 1,500 metres (Swiss estimates)
Challenger 1 - turret resists 125 mm APFSDS at 1,000 metres, hull weaker
Challenger 2 - turret and hull resist 125 mm APFSDS at 1,000 metres (design specifications)
Chieftain with Stillbrew - turret resists 105 mm APFSDS point blank and 120 mm APFSDS at 1,000 metres
I posted about this on another forum quite a while ago, so you may already know this: The company FWH manufactures cast armor parts for German AFVs. It offers three quality classes. Quality class "P" with a hardness of 350 to 380 on the Brinell scale was used for the Leopard 2 to 2A3 (I suppose the early batches of 2A4 tanks also received casts parts of the same quality class). Quality class "Q" with a hardness of 380 to 420 HB was used on the Leopard 2A4, 2A5 and the 2A6 models for Greece and Spain. The quality class "R" with a hardness of 480 to 520 HB is used for the Puma and Boxer. Most German combat vehicles make use of welded armor, so this info is rather meager. However the Boxer uses 45 cast armor parts made by FWH with a size of up tp 1,600 mm.
On the Leopard 2 cast armor elements might be used for the gun mount, the mounting system for the suspension elements and maybe parts of the hatches. But this information gives a general idea about what steel was used for this tank and how protection was improved from the earlier models to the later Leopard 2A4 batches and the following models.
Welding is done austenitic for steel elements of quality class "P" and ferritic for the quality classes "Q" and "R".
There is a document suggesting that the welded steel plates for the Leopard 2's basic construction were delivered by the Stahlwerk Geisweld. The steel is branded "HFX 130" and has a thickness ranging between 5 and 45 mm depending on location. Unfortunately there is no HFX 130 steel being advertised anymore. An interessting fact is that the Stahlwerk Geisweld is nowadays owned by Schmolz und Birkenbach, which also owns the Swiss company SteelTec. While Stahlwerk Geisweld seems to be focused on manufacturing stainless steel for industry applications, SteelTec offers a product called "HSX 130". Given that the "HF" stands for "hochfest" (German for "high strength") and "HS" also stands for "high strength", both of these steel alloys might be the same.
HSX 130 steel is offered with a maximum thickness of 45 mm (like shown in the German document mentioning HFX 130) and has a hardness of 395 HB on average (tensile strength ranges from 1,250 to 1,400 N/mm². This might be used on the Leopard 2, given that flyers from Krauss-Maffei talked about the high quality steel used for the tank.
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German Leopard 2A6MA2 being handed over to the Netherlands:
You previously wrote I would speculate too much on the weight of the tanks, yet you are making even more speculations. Your sources are inconclusive and thus one should be careful with trying to make any statements based on them.
First of all, the British document states that the KE protection for the Abrams would reach a level of 320 to 340 mm protection against APFSDS rounds along the protected frontal arc. Given that the hull front has its minimum armor thickness of the frontal hull is at 0° (while the side armor wasn't altered), it should not have a protection level of "350 mm KE minimum". In fact the M1A2 offered to Sweden has a protection level of 350 mm along the frontal arc of the hull - this tank has no DU armor, but that doesn't matter because only five Abrams tanks were ever created with DU armor protecting the hull. We know that the M1IP and the M1A1 feature upgraded hull armor, which can be seen by looking at the location of the weight demonstrators. This leads to the conclusion that the M1 Abrams did not have 350 mm KE minimum for the hull, but rather 320 mm.
The table from the British documents lists a single value for armor protection for the Leopard 2, you are speculating what this value exactly means. First of all, "at [the] normal" can refer to the armor modules - as suggested by you - or to the tanks. Hitting a tank at normal means hitting the "front side" at perpendicular angle (the side of the tank not being affected by the shape of the armor). Against your assumption speaks the fact that the Centurion, Leopard 1 and T-62 are not listed with the respective armor thickness values they'd have when the armor was hit at the normal from within the 60° frontal arc (Leopard 1 for example would have some 50-70 mm thickness, the T-62 some ~150 mm). This implies that "at normal" means "hitting the tank directly from the front".
You are assuming that this values would refer to the turret armor; but there is no proof for this. The document doesn't say anything about the table being limited to the turret, in fact it lists the hull armor of the Centurion, the Leopard 1 and the T-62! So even if this would refer to "hitting the armor modules at normal", it still could be a value for the hull being hit at 0°.
Do I think that the Leopard 2 must have a protection level of 400 mm or greater at the turret when hit from a 30° angle? No, I don't think it has to. It might have a protection level in the high-300s; but I think we should find sources before making assumptions. We however know for fact that the Leopard 2 has a protection level of ~430 mm steel against KE rounds at the turret when hit directly from the front, because this value is derived from an official table by the manufacturer. So your "350 at 0" is already a false premise. You seem to be eager to "prove" that the Leopard 2 has worse frontal armor than the M1 Abrams; you are ignoring some facts, which speak for the Leopard 2 having better frontal armor (such as the greater armor weight and thickness alocated to the turret front) and you are basing everything on a single source, which leaves too much room for interpretation. As I previously stated, it seems to refer to the protection of the hull front - this would match the data from the Swedish leaks and the physical armor thickness (the hull armor of Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams has nearly identical thickness) and is supported by the values of other tanks matching their hull armor thickness.
The data from the Swedish leak is inconclusive regarding the protection level of the Leopard 2, when attacked from various angles:
As you can see, the surface area with a protection level of 400 mm or more is always larger when attacking the tank from angles other than 0°. The only question that remains is: Which places reach this protection level? The document doesn't tell anything about that, it also doesn't specify wether the area (100%) is limited to the crew compartment or not. If the latter is the case, it seems easily possible for the turret frontal section to also to be part of the protected area. Most likely the hull frontal armor reaches a protection level greater than 400 mm when hit at 20° or 30°, if the frontal hull armor is actually included in the relevant surface area.
The Leopard 2's turret armor has a frontal armor thickness of about 860 mm at the left turret cheek; given that the turret front is sloped at 34° in the horizontal plane, it will have a greater armor thickness when hit at 30° angle than the hull armor at 0° - overall the armor thickness might be comparable to that of the Abrams of 0° (unfortunately nobody has published proper measurements of the Abrams, but supposedly the early production model had some 700 mm physical thickness when hit at 0°). You should keep in mind that the Leopard 2(AV) was designed to resist the 105 mm smoothbore gun firing APFSDS ammo (i.e. the same projectile as used on the 120 mm DM13 with lower velocity) from unknown range. This round has a slightly higher MV and a longer & thicker tungsten penetrator than the M735 APFSDS, which is claimed to penetrate more than 300 mm steel armor.
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Moving back from the armor and more to the general topic:
Something regarding mobility:
According to the French topic, the Leclerc squeezes 1,143 effective hp out of its 1,500 hp engine. The M1 Abrams reaches a1,232 hp net output of its AGT-1500C gas turbine, also some older discussion suggest that it might have only ~1,000 hp at the sprokets. The Leopard 2 seems to be less efficient in this regard, managing to get only 1,070 hp to the sprockets according to W. Spielberger. Leopard 1 gets 630 out of 830 hp to the sprockets. Maybe that is why the German army wishes for a 1,200 kW engine on future Leopard 2 models; however the published acceleration data suggests that the Leopard 2 beats the Abrams to 32 km/h.
Regarding FCS:
In 1987 the Saudi Arabian Kingdom tested the AMX-40, the Challenger 1, the M1A1 Abrams and the EE-T2 Osorio tank. The EE-T2 Osorio was fitted with a French 120 mm smoothbore gun from GIAT and a fire control system developed by the British company Macroni. It included a 16 bit microcontroller and a SAGEM MVS 580 optic with integrated thermal imager for the commander (the same sight was later fitted to the Challenger 2E, which underwent trials in Greece). According to claims made by a Brazilian source, the Osorio was the only tank capable of hitting a stationary target in 4,000 metres distance. Against moving targets (at distances of 1,500, 2,000 and 2,500 metres), the Osorio supposedly hit eight with twelve shots. The Abrams hit 5 with twelve shots, while both of the other tanks managed to hit only a single target. The fuel consumption of the German engine was 200 g/kWh, which allowed it to travel a distance of 400 kilometres, further than any of the other three tanks.
In 1992 the M1A2 Abrams and the Challenger 2 were tested in Kuwait. During the tests numerous results were leaked by American representatives in order to prove that the Challenger 2 was the worse tank. In a statement made to Jane's Defence Weekly, British sources suggested that General Dynamics didn't tell the whole truth. Both tanks failed to climb a 50% slope, because it consisted of loose sand and chalk. The Challenger 2 had to be towed after driving 80 km on flat ground. Maximum speed achieved by the British tank was 50 km/h, while the Abrams managed to reach 65 km/h. The brakes of the Challenger 2 worked too slow in the opinion of the Kuwaiti officials, needing between 50 to 70 metres to come to an halt.
When trying to hit a T-55 tank at a distance of 4,000 metres, the M1A2 managed to hit one out of two shots (apparently it used APFSDS rounds); the Challenger 2 fired six HESH rounds at the same target, all missed. Firing at unarmored targets at distances smaller than 4,000 metres was easy for the Abrams. It hit 10 out of 10 targets, while the Challenger 2 hit only 7. Shooting on armored targets, the Challenger 2 hit four out of four shots, while the Abrams hit nine out of nine. General Dynamics' tank was also better at firing on the move; the Abrams hit three targets at a distance of 2,000 metres with three shots, while the Challenger 2 hit one out of three. In hunter-killer operations, the Abrams required 32 seconds to destroy four targets with fourt shoots; the Challenger 2 hit 3 targets out of four in 66 seconds. Accuracy when firing during night and fuel consumption had still to be measured, but Vickers believed to have an advantage there (at least in fuel consumption).
http://btvt.info/1inservice/abrams_vs_chelly.htm
Challenger 2 ARV towing an Abrams, which failed to climb a dune.
Seems to me that the Merkava 4M's profile is best caught from above, and I can say the same about many other tanks like the Leopard 2A5 and Challenger 1.
Fucking ingrates! After all we've done for them! After all the BGM-71 missiles, food, medicine, and machetes for moderately decapitating people, this is what they chose to focus on?
MoD:
....
- Duvalla airfield - 4 missiles, all shot down;
- Dumeir airfield - 12 missiles, all shot down;
- Bley airfield - 18 missiles, all shot down;
- Shayrat airfield - 12 missiles, all shot down;
- unused Mezze airfield - 5 missiles were shot down;
- Homs airfield - 13 of 13 missiles were destroyed, no serious damage;
- objects in the Barz and Jaramani area - 30 missiles, 7 shot down; objects, partially destroyed, the objects themselves have not been used for a long time, people and equipment were not on them.
- none of the CM entered in the zone of Russian air defense, Russian air defense was not used.
here is some info dealing with the protection requirement of the Chieftain of the 1980s:
This also makes me believe that the turret "cheek" armor protection of the Challenger 1 is 500+ mm RHAe against subcalibre KE threats. The Armed Forces Journal estimate of 580 mm RHAe and the British CR1 engineer "rumor" of 620 mm RHAe seem indeed plausible.
here is some info dealing with the protection requirement of the Chieftain of the 1980s:
This also makes me believe that the turret "cheek" armor protection of the Challenger 1 is 500+ mm RHAe against subcalibre KE threats. The Armed Forces Journal estimate of 580 mm RHAe and the British CR1 engineer "rumor" of 620 mm RHAe seem indeed plausible.
It's interesting.
Presentation (which contains this page) which available now on ontres.se is 110 pages long
about 2-and-a-half years ago i've downloaded on my computer presentation which was 119 pages long. Apparently it's exactly the same as one available now online, except for some pages on tank protection https://cloud.mail.ru/public/FVLe/iUZw87trH
(according to Chrome history file, which i've backed up in dec.2015 and still have now, this pdf was without a doubt downloaded from ontres.se https://i.imgur.com/ysAJQgr.png)
...
new link https://cloud.mail.ru/public/579x/2Z1Bqxm2m
Laviduce got a reaction from Domus Acipenseris in Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!
Laviduce got a reaction from Mighty_Zuk in Contemporary Western Tank Rumble!
Laviduce got a reaction from Xoon in The Leopard 2 Thread
Laviduce got a reaction from Belesarius in The Leopard 2 Thread
