Cartels Using Armor-Piercing Ammunition

[Kristof]

There has recently been a lot of "tanks" made by various cartels that can have over 20mm of steel as armor. I find it interesting since that means that they expect to encounter ammunition that has at least some ability to go through armor. Now, the odd thing is that I have found so far only two reports of cartels using armor-piercing ammunition. One happened in 2011 with the seizure of a "Narco Tank" which was equipped with .50 caliber APM2 Black Tip. More recently, 6 people were caught trying to smuggle thousands of .50 caliber API Silver Tip from the US to Mexico. I am surprised that these are the only two cases I could find, since I have looked at numerous videos and images from Mexican media/forums. Does anyone know of any other instances?

[Sturgeon]

20 hours ago, Kristof said:

There has recently been a lot of "tanks" made by various cartels that can have over 20mm of steel as armor. I find it interesting since that means that they expect to encounter ammunition that has at least some ability to go through armor. Now, the odd thing is that I have found so far only two reports of cartels using armor-piercing ammunition. One happened in 2011 with the seizure of a "Narco Tank" which was equipped with .50 caliber APM2 Black Tip. More recently, 6 people were caught trying to smuggle thousands of .50 caliber API Silver Tip from the US to Mexico. I am surprised that these are the only two cases I could find, since I have looked at numerous videos and images from Mexican media/forums. Does anyone know of any other instances?

 

Probably enough M2 and M8 running around between the cartels that they'd want to protect against them. 20mm is also about the level of steel armor you want to decisively protect against .30 M2 AP, 7.62 M61 AP, and 7.62x54R B-32 API, and I'm sure there's plenty of both of those types running around too.

[Kristof]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:07 AM, Sturgeon said:

 

Probably enough M2 and M8 running around between the cartels that they'd want to protect against them. 20mm is also about the level of steel armor you want to decisively protect against .30 M2 AP, 7.62 M61 AP, and 7.62x54R B-32 API, and I'm sure there's plenty of both of those types running around too.

I genuinely think that AP and API projectiles are extremely rare among cartel forces, since all videos, images and reports seem to show ball and, at most, tracer rounds. Since my last post I have also been able to dig up one 2016 case of 7.62 black tip being used, although even in that situation their arsenal were almost all constituted of ball and tracer rounds. I guess that I'm just very surprised that among cartels, who can afford armored vehicles, heavy machine guns, and grenade/rocket launchers, projectiles with armor-piercing capabilities are pretty much unheard of. 

[Lord_James]

It may be a case of “we have grenade and rocket launchers, why need API”? Their RPGs already provide them with better anti armored vehicle performance than any AP or API short of a tank gun, so why spend the extra money on something you don’t need? 

[Sturgeon]

On 7/31/2022 at 7:33 PM, Kristof said:

I genuinely think that AP and API projectiles are extremely rare among cartel forces, since all videos, images and reports seem to show ball and, at most, tracer rounds.

 

If I can get the stuff, I'm sure the cartels can too.

[Kristof]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:26 PM, Sturgeon said:

 

If I can get the stuff, I'm sure the cartels can too.

You would think so, but all evidence points to .50 AP/API being extremely rare. All weapons and ammunition eventually get captured by the police or at least shown online by the cartels for publicity, especially since we are talking about .50 caliber, so for me to find only 3 cases in 16 years means that it's simply not a concern.

[Sturgeon]

16 minutes ago, Kristof said:

You would think so, but all evidence points to .50 AP/API being extremely rare. All weapons and ammunition eventually get captured by the police or at least shown online by the cartels for publicity, especially since we are talking about .50 caliber, so for me to find only 3 cases in 16 years means that it's simply not a concern.

 

You've only found 3? Here's one in the second row of the first page of GIS results:

[Sturgeon]

Another:

 

 

[Sturgeon]

And another (both M2 and M8 this time):
 

[Sturgeon]

Another:
 

[Sturgeon]

Another:
 

[Sturgeon]

Grainy, but clearly another:

[Sturgeon]

Another, very clear example:

[Kristof]

1 hour ago, Sturgeon said:

You've only found 3? Here's one in the second row of the first page of GIS results:

Although I can't clearly identify all of them as AP ammunition, it is interesting that the articles/tweets that the images came from don't refer to them as armor-piercing projectiles. When I tried to look up ".50 caliber cartel", it seemed to exclusively be ball ammunition that the media called "AP" just because it's .50 caliber, so I quickly dropped that route and focused on searching AP-related vocabulary in Spanish and English.

 

To confirm, those were taken from Google? It seems that some are from videos, especially the second one you posted. I will also start compiling all the relevant images I can find into a list of some kind.

[Sturgeon]

4 hours ago, Kristof said:

Although I can't clearly identify all of them as AP ammunition, it is interesting that the articles/tweets that the images came from don't refer to them as armor-piercing projectiles.

So you have no idea what you're looking at and rely on the authority of journal articles for your data.
 

4 hours ago, Kristof said:

When I tried to look up ".50 caliber cartel", it seemed to exclusively be ball ammunition that the media called "AP" just because it's .50 caliber

Niggabitch, you can see the black and silver tips you blind hag.

 

4 hours ago, Kristof said:

so I quickly dropped that route and focused on searching AP-related vocabulary in Spanish and English.

because you have no idea what you're doing

 

4 hours ago, Kristof said:

To confirm, those were taken from Google?

Yes it's confirmed, I have eyes.

 

4 hours ago, Kristof said:

It seems that some are from videos

and therefore obviously irrelevant

 

4 hours ago, Kristof said:

I will also start compiling all the relevant images I can find into a list of some kind.

We must all bow in respect to the prowess of "compiling a list of some kind"

I eagerly await your "expert" input

[Kristof]

4 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

So you have no idea what you're looking at and rely on the authority of journal articles for your data.
 

Niggabitch, you can see the black and silver tips you blind hag.

 

because you have no idea what you're doing

 

Yes it's confirmed, I have eyes.

 

and therefore obviously irrelevant

 

We must all bow in respect to the prowess of "compiling a list of some kind"

I eagerly await your "expert" input

Are you alright? When I mentioned that I couldn't properly identify the projectiles on some of the pictures it was because the resolution is low. I also asked the question about videos because I couldn't find some of them by reverse image search. Look, I don't know what's up with you at this moment, maybe you are intoxicated, but that might have been the most unwarranted aggressive response I have ever received. Are you angry that your previously very active forum is now effectively dead? Going around calling people "niggabitch" likely didn't help. 

[Sten]

Maybe people don't enjoy inane questions of people way out of their depth... which is actually fine we all start ignorant, but the laziness and stubbornness does it. We don't like to spoonfeed people.

Search for "Drug something something .50" and "Bullet tip color code" and then draw your own conclusions.

It's far from their most common weaponry, but if even stuff like this is apreheanded every month in Brazil it's safe to say it's far far more common in Mexico or whatever...

[Kristof]

25 minutes ago, Sten said:

Maybe people don't enjoy inane questions of people way out of their depth... which is actually fine we all start ignorant, but the laziness and stubbornness does it. We don't like to spoonfeed people.

Search for "Drug something something .50" and "Bullet tip color code" and then draw your own conclusions.

It's far from their most common weaponry, but if even stuff like this is apreheanded every month in Brazil it's safe to say it's far far more common in Mexico or whatever...

I did look up various terms related to AP ammunition in both Spanish and English, but I admitted that it wasn't general enough. I do think that I'm fairly knowledgeable in armor related subjects, but this was simply a Google search that I didn't properly execute. I just don't understand how it warrants being called a "niggabitch" and a "blind hag". 

[Sturgeon]

11 hours ago, Kristof said:

I did look up various terms related to AP ammunition in both Spanish and English, but I admitted that it wasn't general enough. I do think that I'm fairly knowledgeable in armor related subjects, but this was simply a Google search that I didn't properly execute. I just don't understand how it warrants being called a "niggabitch" and a "blind hag". 

 

Nah, it's mea culpa, I was getting too into it. Not your fault.

 

 

 

Having said that, presenting "a google search" as "16 years of research" is a good way to get dribbled and dunked like a Spalding in hood, around here.

[Kristof]

8 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

Nah, it's mea culpa, I was getting too into it. Not your fault.

 

 

 

Having said that, presenting "a google search" as "16 years of research" is a good way to get dribbled and dunked like a Spalding in hood, around here.

When I say "for me to find only 3 cases in 16 years" it doesn't mean that I have been searching for 16 years, but that I looked at data from 2006-2022, which is when the war on drugs began in Mexico.

[Sturgeon]

5 hours ago, Kristof said:

When I say "for me to find only 3 cases in 16 years" it doesn't mean that I have been searching for 16 years, but that I looked at data from 2006-2022, which is when the war on drugs began in Mexico.

 

Fair enough! My mistake.