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Khand-e

The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

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The deadline for delivering the offers was this thursday.
This means that
H&K with 433 and the 416A7/8/9/10....

is left and maybe:

Thales with their F90
Haenel with their CR556
They indicated their interest but not sure if they followed through.

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4 hours ago, Willy Brandt said:

The deadline for delivering the offers was this thursday.
This means that
H&K with 433 and the 416A7/8/9/10....

is left and maybe:

Thales with their F90
Haenel with their CR556
They indicated their interest but not sure if they followed through.

Willy you crazy bastard, always with the scoops.

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42 minutes ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

Oh god. @Ulric this is in Fort Collins. Go do something bad to him. 

 

https://www.armslist.com/posts/7883707/fort-collins-colorado-handguns-for-sale-trade--cz-75b--cold-war-

 

7883707_01_cz_75b_cold_war__640.jpg

 

 

 

In Greeley no less.

 

I guess I shouldn't talk too much shit about Greeley since my new dead great grandparents owned a shit ton of land and a nice little private fishing hole there that I .....think we still have in the family, but....It's Greeley, how can you NOT?

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2 hours ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

People that dislike Greeley haven't had the misfortune of living somewhere truly awful.

 

I grew up in Warren, Detroit.....

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5 hours ago, Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect said:

That is so weird.  Didn't the Czech Republic kind of hate the soviets?

They still do. Dont mind making money off of them though. I do think its very cheesy, and if I was a czech gun maker I would not make a gun with the hammer and sickle on it.

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@Sturgeon


From the FY2019 budget request.

Brigade Combat Teams (BCT) require the capability to engage threat personnel with aimed lethal and accurate fires at ranges exceeding the current squad riflemen provided today. The Army is addressing longer range threats by procuring the Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDMR). The SDMR is intended to provide increased accuracy at longer ranges, giving infantry squads greater firepower and flexibility by engaging targets with precision fire. The Squad Designated Marksman Rifle will be a 7.62x51mm semi-automatic rifle with suppressor, optic, and additional authorized equipment

Quote

FY 2019 Base procurement dollars in the amount of $46.236 million supports the procurement and fielding of 5,180 Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDMR). The SDMR provides Infantry, Scout and Engineer squads the capability to engage enemy personnel with accurate rifle fire. SDMR is a Commercial-Off-The-Shelf (COTS)

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I kind of wish the SDMR wasn't going to be yet another 7.62x51mm caliber rifle as I was talking to Sturgeon about how it's a round that doesn't really do anything particularly great. maybe follow SOCOM who put up interest for 6.5mm Creedmoor or something which is a much better round for long range precision fire against personnel.

 

But, standardization and logistics. *shrug*

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There is also a blurb that reinforces the speculation that ADVAP is based on M80A1.

 

(F57510) 7.62mm M1158 Advanced Armor-Piercing (ADVAP) Ball Cartridges and M62A1 Tracer Cartridges are linked in a 100 cartridge belt in a 4 Ball/1 Tracer configuration with the M13 link for use in the M240 Machine Gun family of weapons. The M1158 Ball Cartridge utilizes projectile with an exposed black metal tip surrounded by a copper jacket. The M62A1 Tracer Cartridge also contains a lead free projectile and provides a visible red light signature through its trajectory and is a ballistic match with the M1158 trajectory. They are intended for use against a broad spectrum of hard targets.

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1 minute ago, Ramlaen said:

 

It's not really speculation at this point, It's all but confirmed that ADVAP M1158 and M1159 are tungsten cored variants of M80A1 and M855A1 respectively.

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4 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

@Mighty_Zuk

 

Heard anything about this presumably steel core 5.56?

 

A second question is what round does the Israeli military normally use?

Honestly I dont know anything more than you do. 

All I could found is:

 

1)The round is APHC - Armor Piercing Hard Core FMJ-BT

 

2)30% more accurate than 7.62mm M80 bullets at 550m range.

 

3)100% penetration (i.e guaranteed penetration) of NATO standard 3.4mm armored steel plate at 800m range.

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6 hours ago, Khand-e said:

I kind of wish the SDMR wasn't going to be yet another 7.62x51mm caliber rifle as I was talking to Sturgeon about how it's a round that doesn't really do anything particularly great. maybe follow SOCOM who put up interest for 6.5mm Creedmoor or something which is a much better round for long range precision fire against personnel.

 

But, standardization and logistics. *shrug*

 

At one point it did appear that ICSR/CSASS/SDMR was roadmapped to be converted to a 6.5mm caliber down the road. Not sure if they're still thinking about that.

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49 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

These are supposed to cost $15/round!?!?

 

I believe its ~$15 for a 4ball/1tracer.

 

"FY 2019 Base procurement in the amount of $25.000 million supports the procurement of 1.675 million 7.62mm M1158 Advanced Armor-Piercing (ADVAP) Ball Cartridges 4Ball/1 M62A1 Tracer linked Cartridges."

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18 minutes ago, Ramlaen said:

 

I believe its ~$15 for a 4ball/1tracer.

 

"FY 2019 Base procurement in the amount of $25.000 million supports the procurement of 1.675 million 7.62mm M1158 Advanced Armor-Piercing (ADVAP) Ball Cartridges 4Ball/1 M62A1 Tracer linked Cartridges."

 

That's... Not usually how that works. Usually they are counted by the round. Here's linked M855A1, for example, from the same document:

 

clvMFmN.png

 

Since M855A1 does not cost $.08/round, this means that - assuming the ADVAP section follows the same rules - M1158 costs $13/shot.

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Fussing with my CZ 52 pistol.

 

They are generally fussy and not terribly practical weapons.  A big part of that is that they were worn completely out by the time they got imported to the USA.  They actually have some safety issues; they're not really drop safe, and the safety lever doesn't always work right.  Presumably they weren't like this out of the factory door.  Still, the design was an exercise in engineering for its own sake rather than real-world pragmatism.  Its Soviet stablemates are far more sensible weapons for military issue.

They have tons of little parts too.  The action accomplishes with with five pieces what more typical Browning-derived actions do with two.  That said, the over-complex mechanism is very strong and fairly compact.

In a more just world these would have been the basis for some amazing raceguns.  The fact that they have so many parts controlling the cycle of operations means that there is a lot for a gunsmith to tinker on.  There could have been custom locking rollers, custom roller locking wedges, et cetera.   If the US Army Marksmanship Unit had, for some bizarre reason, been forced to use CZ 52s, their gunsmiths would have come up with all sorts of whizbang modifications, and a whole generation of gunstore commandos would insist that you can't trust guns which lock with a simple blob of metal that tilts into the ejection port and that real men only need eight rounds of 7.62x25 for any contingency up to an including fending off an attacking BMP.  The inner workings of the design would be treated with mystical reverence because of how much of a pain in the ass they are to re-assemble.

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