Sturgeon Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Belesarius is correct. When I listed 4.7 above I was not referring to the G11 round, which I do not refer to by traditional calibre since it is caseless, but to a brass cased bullet that functionally matches your bullet from the artwork. (Note if I was referring to the G11 round it weighs in at an even more impressive 5 grams). So I took the functional equivalent to your round, the 4,6x36mm (which was developed by the Germans and has a huge database on it) and re-ran my logistics figures with it, calling it 4.7mm. While I believe that a P90 is enough for the modern warrior, the bullet you propose is ok by me, as long as we get away from these rifles trying to do everything. That way we can finally admit that the rifle is a point defense weapon. Virdea, it wouldn't be that light. It would be probably close to 10g, maybe as low as 9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdea Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 This precisely hits my point on the head, and you even use one of my examples, and you nearly duplicate one of my thesis statements on an article I have written. An infantryman is, in my theory, a mobile intelligence platform whose job is indeed to carry a variety of tools to suppress and destroy the enemy when strategically it is unwise and ethically vacant to create a highway of death. Anyone who backpacks knows the limited factor for infantry intimately, and that is weight. Each soldier, baring some wild advance in exoskeletons, has a practical capacity of between 30 and 40 kilos of mass, and they are standing at the end of a supply chain where any savings we can make in that mass is a crucial advantage. I find it convenient to think of an infantryman averaging out 15 kilos of ammo (including their share of the unit support ammo), 5 kilos of weapons, 10 kilos of food and water, and 10 kilos of armor and clothing. The rifle is a specialized PDW designed to carry with a soldier when there is no real way to use their better tools, and to keep hostiles out of hand grenade range. The idea that mechanized infantry are the spotters for a vehicle that carries an array of heavy weapons into battle I think is what is missing from nearly all proposals we have for new IFVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdea Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Virdea, it wouldn't be that light. It would be probably close to 10g, maybe as low as 9. Except, the round actually exists. The mass I quote is the actual manufactured mass of a real bullet that I had the pleasure to shoot at the FN range. Effective range nods out to 300m. The 4.6x36mm was the result of the little known sg.36 project where a team was given the ability to design the best round for infantry combat IF no political concerns were in the way and IF no one was forcing the designed to make it do more than be an infantry weapon. Their findings were a little more generous than mine - 300m instead of 200m, and they relied on a trick bullet which skirted the various conventions called a spoon head which had been noted in emergency rooms to cause terrible wounds, but the round is a 7.65 grams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Except, the round actually exists. The mass I quote is the actual manufactured mass of a real bullet that I had the pleasure to shoot at the FN range. Effective range nods out to 300m. The 4.6x36mm was the result of the little known sg.36 project where a team was given the ability to design the best round for infantry combat IF no political concerns were in the way and IF no one was forcing the designed to make it do more than be an infantry weapon. Their findings were a little more generous than mine - 300m instead of 200m, and they relied on a trick bullet which skirted the various conventions called a spoon head which had been noted in emergency rooms to cause terrible wounds, but the round is a 7.65 grams. Hi Virdea, I actually own one of the 4.6x36mm rounds, and I keep updated a helpful spreadsheet of ammunition weights in my collection. Feel free to take a look at it here. My round weighs 8.2g. I just checked, and the 4.8x35 would actually be lighter than I remember. My chart quotes it at 8.1g brass-cased, 7.8g steel-cased, and 4.7g aluminum cased. So you were right about the general weight improvement that could be had with a new, smaller round. Indeed, that's why I pursued that micro-caliber line of development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdea Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Hi Virdea, I actually own one of the 4.6x36mm rounds, and I keep updated a helpful spreadsheet of ammunition weights in my collection. Feel free to take a look at it here. My round weighs 8.2g. I just checked, and the 4.8x35 would actually be lighter than I remember. My chart quotes it at 8.1g brass-cased, 7.8g steel-cased, and 4.7g aluminum cased. So you were right about the general weight improvement that could be had with a new, smaller round. Indeed, that's why I pursued that micro-caliber line of development. You have the AP round whose bullet is 3.5 grams. Dockery and Ezell both list the AP round at 8.5 grams. The regular round is 7.65 grams with a bullet mass of 2.7 grams. However using an 8 gram round mass with the 4.8mm Sturgeon round (and testing in the 1970s proved that round this size were perfectly capable of handling modern stopping power requirements and even of penetrating vests), you are still throwing out nearly 4 grams of mass on a 5.56mm. Your ultimate bullet is not useful past 300m, but then again, it does not really have to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 You have the AP round whose bullet is 3.5 grams. Dockery and Ezell both list the AP round at 8.5 grams. The regular round is 7.65 grams with a bullet mass of 2.7 grams. However using an 8 gram round mass with the 4.8mm Sturgeon round (and testing in the 1970s proved that round this size were perfectly capable of handling modern stopping power requirements and even of penetrating vests), you are still throwing out nearly 4 grams of mass on a 5.56mm. Your ultimate bullet is not useful past 300m, but then again, it does not really have to be. Pretty sure I don't have the AP round. The one I have is a Loffelspitz ball round, and appears to be #5 in the chart shown in this thread. And I agree with you, that's why I designed it. The winds don't appear to favor micro-caliber rounds these days, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdea Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 This has been the case for years. However, I would discard the term micro-caliber and if I were still writing on the subject i would start my own vocabulary. Own the word, make their word uncool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khand-e Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Not gonna lie, since were all posting "my fantasy guns" here, I may aswell join in. one of my dumb ideas for a PDW is based on an updated Spectre M4 (I've actually got to try one on full auto at an MG shoot, really like them actually) with a slightly longer 155mm barrel, the choice being partially influenced by the closed bolt design and the 50 round casket magazine feed system for it, and chambered for a 6x24mm cartridge, which is basically the the 6.5x25mm CBJ-MS dimension wise with a shorter neck, and necked down to .243 caliber with a conventional bullet, as I can't imagine the tungsten dart rounds for the CBJ being cheap to use in the long run. Bullet weight/style would be a tool steel cored 2g projectile encased in hard cast lead/antimony body and a nickel/copper alloy jacket, chamber pressure would be around 60,000 psi. some may ask "hey, why not just use a P90 or QCW-05?" Because fuck it, that's why. I think it might be a decent weapon for second line troops and vehicle crews, certain special ops missions, and police work. P.S. .20-.24 caliber bullits best bullits, fite me irl. Virdea 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoooSeR Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 You guys can continue this discussion, while i post real things. "On Saud-Yemeni border clashes continue between the forces of the Shiite movement "Ansar Allah", consisting of tribal militia and units of the Yemeni army, and Saudi troops, consisting of parts of the Saudi royal army, the national guard and border guards. On June 8th the Saudi kingdom reported about loss in the battles of another border guard and a soldier of the National Guard, while photos of trophies, captured by Yemenis from Saudi troops, began to appear on the Internet. Note the following photo shows a new 12.7 mm sniper rifle LRT-3 from the Canadian PGW Defence Technologies. These rifles were recently acquired for the Royal Saudi Land Forces." 2 more: https://twitter.com/Fatikr/status/608002643252776960 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khand-e Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 2 more: I see very little of value lost in this photo. I thought you were supposed to take something significant when taking a trophy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belesarius Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Experimental TKB336 LMG from Max's FB page. Collimatrix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Fight Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I see very little of value lost in this photo. I thought you were supposed to take something significant when taking a trophy? Have there been any other tests on the G36 rifles, or have any export countries come forward with complaints? It seems like a country like Saudi Arabia would notice some problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 One would THINK the vaunted Saudi military would notice accuracy problems... *Scene cuts to guys jumping in a circle, chanting, and firing off random shots on the air". ... ... ... Yeah I know it's a stereotype and probably unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Fight Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 One would THINK the vaunted Saudi military would notice accuracy problems... *Scene cuts to guys jumping in a circle, chanting, and firing off random shots on the air". ... ... ... Yeah I know it's a stereotype and probably unfair. I'm not familiar with their general infantry, but their special forces seem to have a reputation for fighting ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xthetenth Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 One would THINK the vaunted Saudi military would notice accuracy problems... *Scene cuts to guys jumping in a circle, chanting, and firing off random shots on the air". ... ... ... Yeah I know it's a stereotype and probably unfair. Please, we help them. They're horribly and utterly incompetent in a dignified, western way. *Scene cuts to a General signing off on things that'd be a Lieutenant's job in the US military* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoooSeR Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Ukrainian volunteers made light mount for DShK. Mount is 6.8 kg, giving 40.3 kg in total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoooSeR Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Vepr-12 in Syria, SAA. Belesarius 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belesarius Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 LOL, we beat them to it over TS. Or did Nathaniel talk to Alex C. about that game? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/09/can-guess-gun-sound/#disqus_thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 I had nothing to do with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belesarius Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Ok, that makes it even more amusing. I got 3/5 on the vid. The stripper clip sound threw me off, and I didn't recognize the HK sound, as I've never been around a MP5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Both of those got me, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belesarius Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Both of those got me, too. Son, I am disappoint. I expected you to get all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Fight Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Ok, that makes it even more amusing. I got 3/5 on the vid. The stripper clip sound threw me off, and I didn't recognize the HK sound, as I've never been around a MP5. I didn't guess the Mauser or HK right, but the HK was a little more of an "ooooooohhhhh" moment when I realize I've heard it a million times in games and movies. Fun video, and they seem much more relaxed than their Assault Rifle video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 For me the audio during the "guessing" portions was weird and didn't sound like the audio from the reveal - anybody else feel like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belesarius Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 For me the audio during the "guessing" portions was weird and didn't sound like the audio from the reveal - anybody else feel like that? A little, especially on the Mp5 and the 1st one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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