Sturgeon Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2016 On cavalry and four pommeled saddles: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Eh. Not one of his better vids since he took too long mumbling about domestication and training of horses. The last nit about the four pommel saddle was revolutionary though. I liked the two videos from a month or so ago about ancient combat fatigue and particularly the vid discussing how to get a soldier to kill someone. It's harder than you think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Eh. Not one of his better vids since he took too long mumbling about domestication and training of horses. The last nit about the four pommel saddle was revolutionary though. I liked the two videos from a month or so ago about ancient combat fatigue and particularly the vid discussing how to get a soldier to kill someone. It's harder than you think! I occasionally think that this is one of the reasons (there are many) why pastoral peoples were so prone to conquest. When you raise an army of city lads or wheat farmers, you tend to have a lot fewer folk who are really comfortable with killing living things. Pastoralists and hunters, however, already have extensive experience with the mechanics of the process, and are perhaps a bit easier to coax into murder because of it. I suspect that this was also a factor in the second Boer War: lots of British soldiers were city boys who had never shot at anything other than a circular firing range target. The boers, however, were almost to a man lads who had hunted and dressed their own meat. This might have made it just that fraction easier for them to pull the trigger once they had a red coat lined up. Donward 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 I agree. It's not just the proficiency with hunting weapons but they get over their "buck fever" at an early age. I never got buck fever btw. But that leads me to TIL in that getting soldiers to kill video where Lindy stated that something like 3/4s of VC winners were older siblings who were thrust into a position of responsibility at an early age and as such felt responsible to protect their mates. I found that interesting being an older sibling. Going forward, I wonder how much desensitization is going on what with video games and movies. Lindy mentioned the realistic training which creates a reflex killing instinct by soldiers today. Toxn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Answering my own question I wager it is easier if the person doing the killing is looking at it through an artificial screen either manning a drone or looking through their HUD. I seem to recall some Gulf War vets likening the experience to an arcade game. I'm not sold the video game conditioning transfers over to actual trigger time in the shit although i can be persuaded either way. Toxn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Answering my own question I wager it is easier if the person doing the killing is looking at it through an artificial screen either manning a drone or looking through their HUD. I seem to recall some Gulf War vets likening the experience to an arcade game. I'm not sold the video game conditioning transfers over to actual trigger time in the shit although i can be persuaded either way. Apparently something as simple as getting the victim to face in the other direction (or wear a face-covering hood/blindfold) has a huge impact on how likely a firing squad is to hit. So, yeah, putting people high up and getting them to view their targets through a display will have a huge effect on how likely they are to press the button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashbotUS Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 That's why the steppe tribes and folks from the "wild fields" typically made life miserable for the more settled people in eastern Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 7, 2016 Report Share Posted September 7, 2016 I'm always interested in non-elite gear for a given time period. Today, Matt has that shit on lock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-tnlH3ffw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Nick explains how British officers were suicidally stupidly brave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrauBQf7FpI Suicidal Stupid bravery of officers is something of a British and French speciality, and one of those things that sits well on them despite being... less than optimal in terms of keeping your command and control intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpYIPlVx4Rs And yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted September 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpYIPlVx4Rs And yet... This just in! Primitive tribespeople do not know how to make axes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 This just in! Primitive tribespeople do not know how to make axes! Stop that shit right there, regardless of whether you're joking or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted September 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 Stop that shit right there, regardless of whether you're joking or not. I have no interest in either recognizing your indignation as valid or pissing you off. I am sure you can think of a more complex set of reasoning behind what I said that isn't offensive to people who live more natural lifestyles. Alternately, you could prove me wrong by throwing down some knowledge on why those axes are shaped that way. Lloyd's reasoning pretty much holds up, but maybe the axes you posted are designed with something else in mind. Care to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 I have no interest in either recognizing your indignation as valid or pissing you off. I am sure you can think of a more complex set of reasoning behind what I said that isn't offensive to people who live more natural lifestyles. Alternately, you could prove me wrong by throwing down some knowledge on why those axes are shaped that way. Lloyd's reasoning pretty much holds up, but maybe the axes you posted are designed with something else in mind. Care to share? This just in! Primitive tribespeople do not know how to make axes! 1. You're talking about iron-age nations, not neolithic tribes. Population sizes range from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands. 2. These are weapons of war, for armies that got well into the size range associated with medieval armies. 3. You're making the whiggish mistake of equating 'lower tech' with 'stupid'. Moving on - here are some hypotheses: a) Nick's idea is valid, and the people making these axes are using them in a different fashion to the european type (ie: as sabre analogues). b ) Nick's idea is valid, but the advantage simply isn't enough to overcome cultural inertia. c) Nick's idea is valid, and subsaharan Africans are just too stupid or uneducated to notice the advantages of a rounded blade arrangement. d) Nick's idea is invalid, and axe shape is basically a fashion choice. Nick doesn't notice this, because he limits his sample to Western Europe. e) Nick's idea is invalid, and Western Europeans are just too stupid or uneducated to notice the advantages of an arrow-shaped blade arrangement. f) Nick's idea is invalid, and the differences in shape have more to do with production methods than any functional concerns. I don't hold with c) or e), and feel that there is some merit in Nick's idea. So my gut feeling here is that options a) or b ) are probably closest to the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted September 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 Whoah whoah, where did I say they were stupid? I said they didn't know things (which is almost the definition of being lower tech), and I fully accept I might be wrong about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 Whoah whoah, where did I say they were stupid? I said they didn't know things (which is almost the definition of being lower tech), and I fully accept I might be wrong about that. I do tend to go off at people about the word 'primitive', as it's such a common dog whistle to encounter whenever you bring up non-european cultures. Talk about anything from Africa and it gets even worse. So my apologies if that wasn't your intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted September 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 None of that apologizing crap. But yes, I assumed an understanding that "primitive" means "primitive" and not secretly "untermenschen" or something. Toxn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 None of that apologizing crap. But yes, I assumed an understanding that "primitive" means "primitive" and not secretly "untermenschen" or something. You do not know how rare a quality this is. Edit: back on topic, I've actually dug a little bit now and found that pointy axes really are a bit of a rarity. This strengthens Nick's case, I think. However, there are a number of axes that have asymmetrical blades (usually point-forwards on the top blade), which makes me think that there is more here than meets the eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 Perhaps I can suggest a taxonomy of sorts: - crescent axes (rounded blades, socketed) - good for striking on any part of the blade? - narrow-bladed axes - good for creating penetrating wounds? A primitive form which is limited in shape by the materials involved? - Point-forwards axes - good for putting more force into the strike? More optimised for cutting? - Point at top of axe (eg: some viking and Danish axes) - Point at centre of axe (arrowhead shape) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volkswagen Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 Honestly I fail to see any major functional differences between rounded/arrowhead/straight axe blades (unless the shaping is extreme). European straight axe blades (Mostly halberds etc.) - http://sagy.vikingove.cz/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lunow.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a7/0f/89/a70f89b9cbac21a2f841c2aa4cb6af6d.jpg http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/036200/files/012036099/pole-axe-wallace-collection.jpg http://s277.photobucket.com/user/Dstaberg/media/Weapons/swiss_extanthalb.jpg.html https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b7/90/ac/b790ac2d22b638a3b93c24e447133141.jpg http://alex-bratina.narod.ru/clemmus/img/CMA_.1916.1561.jpg http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/1109-1.jpg Some Indo-Persians (one from Philippines): http://101antiquesword.com/image/cache/data/persian%20axe%20101-800x600.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/52/2f/55522f58a0bbe87cbc7907eacba83d8c.jpg http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/ODAwWDc5OQ==/z/FfwAAOSwnNBXXZwN/$/Rare-Antique-Chieftains-Kalinga-Warriors-Head-Axe-Philippine-_1.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/54/3c/e3/543ce38d44d6afc09b8f5b618f31e891.jpg LostCosmonaut 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 I wonder how many of these unusual axe heads are more for ceremonial purposes in order to show off power/strike fear into the populace versus being intended for actual combat use. A Roman fasces, for instance, is really entirely useless for a weapon since it's just an axe stuck into a bundle of rods. Ditto say for instance, an English Headsman's Axe use to execute prisoners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volkswagen Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 Well, there is really nothing that makes them unusable as a weapon and considering the climate in India - Persia people in general wouldn't be wearing too much clothing/armor to make them any less effective. Also the time period on some of those weapons is 18th -19th century so again not too much armor is involved. In that Lindy's axe video the arguments about kite/heater shields are also absurd. For one why is he using it point forwards when they are mostly shown to be used point downwards, hence the shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 I wonder how many of these unusual axe heads are more for ceremonial purposes in order to show off power/strike fear into the populace versus being intended for actual combat use. A Roman fasces, for instance, is really entirely useless for a weapon since it's just an axe stuck into a bundle of rods. Ditto say for instance, an English Headsman's Axe use to execute prisoners. All the ones I provided pictures of are war axes. Honestly I fail to see any major functional differences between rounded/arrowhead/straight axe blades (unless the shaping is extreme). European straight axe blades (Mostly halberds etc.) - http://sagy.vikingove.cz/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lunow.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a7/0f/89/a70f89b9cbac21a2f841c2aa4cb6af6d.jpg http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/036200/files/012036099/pole-axe-wallace-collection.jpg http://s277.photobucket.com/user/Dstaberg/media/Weapons/swiss_extanthalb.jpg.html https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b7/90/ac/b790ac2d22b638a3b93c24e447133141.jpg http://alex-bratina.narod.ru/clemmus/img/CMA_.1916.1561.jpg http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/1109-1.jpg Some Indo-Persians (one from Philippines): http://101antiquesword.com/image/cache/data/persian%20axe%20101-800x600.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/55/52/2f/55522f58a0bbe87cbc7907eacba83d8c.jpg http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/ODAwWDc5OQ==/z/FfwAAOSwnNBXXZwN/$/Rare-Antique-Chieftains-Kalinga-Warriors-Head-Axe-Philippine-_1.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/54/3c/e3/543ce38d44d6afc09b8f5b618f31e891.jpg I guess the obvious response is that halberds have such a long swing (and consequently produce so much force) that glancing blows cease to matter. I guess the easiest way to test Nick's idea is to make a bunch of axes with the same design except for blade shape, then test them against simulated, moving, arms or something. Fat chance of that happening, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volkswagen Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Few more of those funky axes But yeah, some proper testing would be nice. Toxn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 My gut is telling me those are ceremonial items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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