Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 But all cartridges have major shortcomings - namely, people are not buying them from me. I have an unhealthy fetish for super-heavy .35 caliber rounds built around integrally suppressed single shots. What have you got for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 The 6.8 SPC article has officially broken my comment record, set by "A Dissection Of (Yet) An(other) M4 Hit Piece" at 586 comments: Donward and LoooSeR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Oh my God. That article was still going. I... I feel I must go back there and look what destruction has been wrought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Is still going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 It says the comments section has been closed down. But mebbe that's just my Discus browser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 The 6.8 article or the Hit Piece article?Also, this is the second time this fortnight that I've pissed off a forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Derp. I was wondering why everything said 4 months old and folks seemed hot to trot about the AR... Derp. Derp. Derp. Derp. Yeah. I wasn't able to get in on the AK-47 goodness. Mostly because I don't strongly identify with the Kalashnikov. Yeah. It's a great design, robust and ubiquitous in any theater of modern warfare. The AK-74 is pretty much all anyone could ask for in a weapon that you want to arm LOTS of guys with. And in the 1970s and 1980s it was the COOL gun to arm bad guys with in any movie since everyone knew how much better it was than the M16. As I've mentioned before, a couple wars in the Middle East, an influx of variable quality AKs into the American civilian market and the ARevolution has taken the shine off the AK and it no longer has the sex appeal it once possessed. But there isn't anything inherently wrong with it as a weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xthetenth Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 The 6.8 article or the Hit Piece article? Also, this is the second time this fortnight that I've pissed off a forum. Truly arfcom is the place to objectively settle matters of taste involving their pet gun. Sturgeon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Derp. I was wondering why everything said 4 months old and folks seemed hot to trot about the AR... Derp. Derp. Derp. Derp. Yeah. I wasn't able to get in on the AK-47 goodness. Mostly because I don't strongly identify with the Kalashnikov. Yeah. It's a great design, robust and ubiquitous in any theater of modern warfare. The AK-74 is pretty much all anyone could ask for in a weapon that you want to arm LOTS of guys with. And in the 1970s and 1980s it was the COOL gun to arm bad guys with in any movie since everyone knew how much better it was than the M16. As I've mentioned before, a couple wars in the Middle East, an influx of variable quality AKs into the American civilian market and the ARevolution has taken the shine off the AK and it no longer has the sex appeal it once possessed. But there isn't anything inherently wrong with it as a weapon. AR-15s are cheaper and quicker to make, actually, and more fully take advantage of modern production techniques. That's part of what I find so endearing about the AK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xthetenth Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Not if you don't have selfsame modern production techniques. Tools and design are a symbiosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Not if you don't have selfsame modern production techniques. Tools and design are a symbiosis. You know you don't need to tell me that, if you have read the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xthetenth Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 You know you don't need to tell me that, if you have read the article. But of course. I do wish more discussions of finished products included mentions of industrial processes available and their impact as a general thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 I have started a Q&A on ARFCOM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xthetenth Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Well that sure is a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 This guy is so nuts, I can go buy bags full of him at the local Brookshire's: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxn Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R2vBZuLI3oI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belesarius Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 Valorious is a special snowflake too. 5.7 as a general issue cartridge? Even I know that's a fucking bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 Well, what he suggested was hopped up 5.7-on-coke. Now, the fact that he thinks he'll just get a free extra 600 ft/s velocity (+54% energy) from the same case is what's really nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donward Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 So we get less recoil and more "force" out of the same basic weapon just because H&K sprinkled Teutonic fairy dust on it? Why AREN'T you writing about this? Enquiring minds want to know! Also, I want a damn parody article about the Bundeswehr adopting the Dreyse needle-gun or something similarly redonkulous. I mean if TFB uses filler like shooting Easter candy or the infamous "Hey, what is this gun?" articles, then there isn't any reason why we can't get a belly full of laughs (while also maybe learning something). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdea Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 Not to be a Philistine, but I am a fan of the P90 and do not think that it needs some crazy boost in power to be effective. In essence, I believe that the kinetic hand weapon has ended it useful life, and that the P90 represents a useful departure point from a logistics chain point of view because it can be chambered in pistols - and I class kinetic weapons as defensive envelop weapons. 600 extra FPS in a P90 is not needed. It handles engagements at under 200 meters now. The P90 and 5.7 pistols are the weapon used by soldiers for clearing buildings, guard duty, snap shooting in the initial contact phase of combat, and for other work in the 200 meter defensive envelope. They are not the power of the unit. Imagine a German squad in WW2 where the MG42 was the core, and half the squad would be lugging Panzerfausts around. Create a basic squad format that looks like this: Grenadiers x6 Marksman x1 GPMG x1 Rockateer x1 Each P90 carrier has 1 load for the GPMG, 2 rocket grenades for the Rockateer, and 5 kilos of advanced rifle grenades (10 grenades each). As a defensive weapon the P90 is used for immediate suppression of enemy in close contact. The rifle grenades rain hate down on the enemy from 30 to 300 meters. The GPMG, Marksman, and Rockateer are for engagements up to 800 meters. From 200 meters to the horizon advanced delivered weaponry take care of business. This is not to say everyone is not correct about the P90 being a bit weak. But the above squad can for at least five minutes land as much explosives as a battery of 60mm mortars on an enemy. And unlike the 60mm team their first grenade is off in the first thirty second of contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 I don't mind the P90, but suggestions of using it and similar weapons as the primary kinetic energy infantry small arms are... Radical, certainly.The truth is, the P90 and the MP7 both have atrocious ballistics; while they can technically kill you at 200m, it doesn't take very much at all to stop them from doing so. The aim of those weapons is admirable; I think the pursuit of smaller, lighter infantry weapons designed for 200m/300m/400m combat is reasonable, but you have to meet requirements first. I don't think either the 5.7 or 4.6 do. 5.56 does, and it's not the smallest thing that could, so the 4.6 and 5.7 may represent going "too far" in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdea Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 My theory is radical, but untested except by special forces, who of course choose their battlefields carefully and use training to get the best from their weapons. I propose it merely as a route to look into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted April 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 My theory is radical, but untested except by special forces, who of course choose their battlefields carefully and use training to get the best from their weapons. I propose it merely as a route to look into. That sort of thing is clearly something to consider, but I think there are still necessary requirements for infantry rifles. The bayonet analogy is helpful, but you can only push it so far. At the end of the day, the rifle is still relevant as a suppression device, if not as a casualty-producing machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaustianQ Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I have awful opinions, but if you want something roughly the size of a P90 to put out something close to rifle while still fitting into a pistol, wouldn't .22 Spitfire be a workable solution, if not a better decision than 5.7x28? 3.25g @ 820m/s is quite a bit better than what the FN round is capable of anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturgeon Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I think if you're goung that small, you substantially do not want to be .22 cal anymore. If you think about it, all this discussion is exactly what was being thrown around in the late Fifties and the Sixties with SPIW. Each rifleman gets a grenade launcher, and is armed with a pissweak caliber that means his rifle is pretty much just a flat-shooting SMG with better penetration and lighter ammunition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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