Peopling of the Americas Becomes More Complex

[Collimatrix]

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vnfv/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature14895_F1.html

 

Apparently some South American populations share genes with Australasian populations that North Americans do not.

[Toxn]

Those guys were pretty much the god-ancestors of sailing.

[Collimatrix]

To some degree.  It was also a hell of a lot easier to get to Australia when they did it than it is now:

[Toxn]

That still doesn't get you anywhere near to South America.

[Collimatrix]

Indeed, it does not.  What's even weirder is that most of the Pacific islands were clearly untouched by humans until the Polynesians got to 'em, in some cases extraordinarily late.  The Maoris made it to New Zealand in the ADs, as evinced by the sudden disappearance of most of the native fauna.  So these guys didn't island-hop.

 

So I'm not sure how this first wave of Australasian-related people made it to the New World.  Did they go straight across the Pacific?  Or did they hug the Ring of Fire?

[Xlucine]

Straight across the pacific without touching all the islands makes no sense - but if they went via alaska, why didn't their genes survive anywhere else?

[Priory_of_Sion]

Straight across the pacific without touching all the islands makes no sense - but if they went via alaska, why didn't their genes survive anywhere else?

Different groups crossing over could have pushed the original Americans south while the newer groups replace them?

[Zinegata]

There was a trade link between South America and Polynesia - the basis of Polynesian agrictulture is potatoes which were originally from South America. Maybe the genetic link is through the Polynesian trade?

[Toxn]

Indeed, it does not.  What's even weirder is that most of the Pacific islands were clearly untouched by humans until the Polynesians got to 'em, in some cases extraordinarily late.  The Maoris made it to New Zealand in the ADs, as evinced by the sudden disappearance of most of the native fauna.  So these guys didn't island-hop.

 

So I'm not sure how this first wave of Australasian-related people made it to the New World.  Did they go straight across the Pacific?  Or did they hug the Ring of Fire?

God-ancestors of sailing.

[Zinegata]

God-ancestors of sailing.

 

You get to live only on the basis of not saying "aliens"

[Toxn]

Given the choice between postulating yet another fucking land bridge and assuming that these folk sailed right the fuck across the pacific in balsawood canoes; I will choose the latter until such time as compelling evidence to the contrary appears.

[Collimatrix]

God-ancestors of sailing.

 

 

I suppose, but current evidence is that sailing was developed and forgotten several times.

[Zinegata]

Given the choice between postulating yet another fucking land bridge and assuming that these folk sailed right the fuck across the pacific in balsawood canoes; I will choose the latter until such time as compelling evidence to the contrary appears.

 

Well, rather than postulate another land bridge why not consider the possibility of islands that are now underwater?

[Collimatrix]

Well, rather than postulate another land bridge why not consider the possibility of islands that are now underwater?

 

Not within the geological timespans we're talking.

 

At the time, yes, there were some island chains that were single, larger islands, but the Pacific was still a huge expanse of blue.

[Priory_of_Sion]

I still like the idea of multiple groups of people moving into the Americas and the first group, being related to the Australians being pushed south by other groups. Makes the most sense to me.

[Xlucine]

How common is it for genetic groups to get displaced like that without any genetic trace? Admittedly it's the only option other than big ass storms wiping out island populations ready for polynesians to colonise them

[Collimatrix]

How common is it for genetic groups to get displaced like that without any genetic trace? Admittedly it's the only option other than big ass storms wiping out island populations ready for polynesians to colonise them

 

The Polynesians brought a bunch of new plants and animals with them, like dogs, pigs, taro, coconuts, et plurima cetera.  Also, most Polynesian islands had charming indigenous fauna that were largely wiped out when the Polynesians arrived.

 

I'm pretty dubious that any other humans could have arrived before them without leaving similar dents on the subfossil record, even if they'd managed to die out without leaving any direct evidence of their existence.

 

IIRC, it was a popular theory for a while that the Proto-Indo-Europeans had expanded out of Central Asia rapidly during the Bronze Age and displaced/wiped out pre-existing populations with little admixture.  In relation to this, the PIE populations were sometimes called "the battle-axe people."

 

Dunno if genetic research backs this up.

[Priory_of_Sion]

Relevant

http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/summer-2015/article/australo-melanesians-and-a-very-ancient-ancestry

[Collimatrix]

Clovis-First is dead.

 

 

These days, it's rare find a scientist who promotes the "Clovis first" and "ice-free corridor" model. But the concept still looms large in American archaeology.

 

"It's really funny. After all these years a lot of people keep starting their papers with the 'Clovis first' model and then knocking it down," said Jennifer Raff, an anthropological geneticist at the University of Kansas who was not involved in the Nature study. "Sometimes it's like, 'You guys, we have to move on.'"

 

But moving on is hard to do — even when the incident in question happened more than a dozen millennia ago. If the very first Americans didn't come through the corridor, some wondered, perhaps the Clovis people took the route later.

No such luck, according to Willerslev.

 

"Even for Clovis people ... I find it very unlikely they could have come through the interior ice corridor," he said. "It simply wasn’t viable."

 

[Vanagandr]

I still like the idea of multiple groups of people moving into the Americas and the first group, being related to the Australians being pushed south by other groups. Makes the most sense to me.

It's dubious to me that one group would push another entirely out without someone boning and leaving a genetic trace somewhere along the line; you can find Neanderthaler DNA in some Euros after all

 

I for one am really excited that people seem to have been just super competent at sailing a long time ago

[Collimatrix]

On 7/23/2015 at 7:43 PM, Priory_of_Sion said:

I still like the idea of multiple groups of people moving into the Americas and the first group, being related to the Australians being pushed south by other groups. Makes the most sense to me.

Looks like it might have been something like this.

 

Quote

The findings published Wednesday (Feb. 22, 2017) in the journal Science Advances suggest that Paleoamericans share a last common ancestor with modern native South Americans outside, rather than inside, the Americas and underscore the importance of looking at both genetic and morphological evidence, each revealing different aspects of the human story, to help unravel our species' history.

 

[Collimatrix]

The end of the Clovis culture and the megafaunal extinctions appear to have coincided with a comet impact.

 

 

[Collimatrix]

If this is true it's the find of the decade.

 

 

[Priory_of_Sion]

Big if

[Collimatrix]

The plot thickens!

 

Ancient DNA Reveals a Completely Unknown Population of Native Americans