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The Designer of The 6.8 SPC Rants About The 7mm Caliber

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According to an email replicated in this thread, Cris Murray claims he worked on the 7x46mm before the 6.8mm SPC.


He also claimed to have "carried an M60", suggesting he was in the service at one point, which is odd because I've only ever heard him referred to as a civilian by people who know him. Maybe he wasn't in while he was at the AMU, I dunno. In another published email from 2009, he also refers to "getting out of Iraq". Not sure what is going on there.


I find it a little ironic that he says he is a gun guy not an ammo guy, notes the PKM is lighter than the M240, and his solution to this is... A new round. Why not work on a lighter 7.62 machine gun?


Mostly posting these for future reference.

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Hey, i know... 


We could just use the sub 14 pound empty weight 24 inch barreled 7.62 machine gun we already developed...


But, i mean the balance wasn't as insanely good after philco productionized it as it was in it's original right handed only configuration, those load and go belt boxes that eliminated the need for dicking with the top cover and made it almost magazine fed rifle fast to reload and get back in action woulda likely cost a few more dollars each, and it started out as kind of a bullpup! (oh the heresy oh the shame)


I Really liked weaponsman and have vast respect for his voluminous and hard won knowledge, but i gotta say he fell down on the job big time concluding in part 5 of the SAW series that "the m249 was just plain better."


Honestly, he fell down distressingly hard on that one... There's quite literally not any way in which the xm249 even played in the same league as the xm235/248 except one technicality which turned out to be less than a meaningless "win" for FN... (some will say with hi dsight my assertion is true, but that couldn't have been known at the time! They're full of shit.)


The xm249 had a 30 round magazine adapter which required no parts swapping etc.... And didn't work all that great from day one!


Somehow i doubt fn would be happy if it was made clear that they got the contract based on their flaming shit pile mag adapter!


With bipod the 7.62 xm235 was under 16.5 pounds. Best weight i can find for the t&e mechanism itself gives a 3 pound weight, and because of the way these guns were designed and built the t&e is the only "extra part" not part of the gun itself needed for tripod use! That's a whole ALMOST 20 POUNDS for everything but the ammo and plastic ammo box!


Things I've read also indicate that even the 7.62 version did not need the soft recoil mount that weighs more than a 7.62 xm248 with bipod (realistically the manuals I'm checking show 20 pounds for t&e + soft recoil in addition to the much heavier 240's themselves... The whole fycking package minus ammo weighs as much as the mount and t&e alone!)


This whole bullshit that America cannot into making guns as light as pkm is maddening when you know this...



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I have them all the time, especially in the summer... The heat makes me moody bitchy and evil like a teenage girl


Sorry guys


Still... The xm235 didn't suck and we suck because we didn't adopt it's not suckness!


It's big brother GPAWS / LWGPHMG / DOVER DEVIL also was refreshingly not sucky but we suck so we didn't buy that either

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Dover Devil.




TBH, if someone like Hognose says a late 1970s US Army weapons design - even one that appears extremely clever - was not very good, then I will believe him.

Not to say that something similar to the XM235 shouldn't be revisited... But I am skeptical of the Army's ability during that period to create anything that worked well and was ergonomically practical.

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Nathaniel, in this case though they really actually did create really good items.


Btw, the same guys did the Dover Devil too and at least one of the original XM235/GPAWS team is still in the industry and has patented a new piece for Dover devil in the last 5 years.


They really are great designs and would have been extraordinarily economical to mass produce, and they even had pretty amazingly low parts counts to boot.


After finding that hughes presentation and going through the other stuff from the first two years of the SAR archives the other day i can also safely say that i really hope you're wrong about our design chops from that era...




Because a good portion of what we're working on these days is pretty much retreads of that stuff. Kinda to a shocking degree.

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In theory the M85 and M73 were good designs. They were admirably light, compact, and had all the features you'd want in dedicated tank machine guns. 


In practice? They were some of the worst failures in small arms in US history - so bad, so far, far worse than the M14 or M16, that today their names are notorious to experts and virtually unknown to laymen.


The XM235 is a good idea. In theory.

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Point of order, that's really NOT the example you want to use LOL...




That particular pair of guns share the same origin point, had the same mischief done unto them by the same guy, and a third guy who wound up stuck with the mess after the Arsenal system got shuttered confirms this without saying so and with every reason to instead promote a different option more beneficial to him...


*plus the origination gun(s) worked really great in Canada, the UK, and here i believe over multiple calibers and almost 2 decades of desultory on and off messing with them...


Story time (source the pair of articles about Robinson in fighting firearms as well as one or more interviews of former GE guys by SAR available on their site)


Ok so, the m73 & m85 started out as the Robinson Model 33 which was a VERY MATURE and very well behaved design when ordnance bought the design and was getting ready to put it in production as is....  Then Robinson turned down a job with them instead going to Colt and SUDDENLY the design was punted to TRW for "verification" which was really an instruction to break it as hard as you fucking can. Two contracts and quite awhile later the new "fixed" design was sent back and batch 2 of preproduction was made and tested with batch 1 guns... Batch w guns sucked dick batch 1 guns didn't...


Fast forward a bit longer and GE has now had RIA dumped in its lap lock stock and barrel and calls from the field are coming in saying hey these guns are fucking broken! GE's in blind panic trying to rehire, at least make contact with, and otherwise talk to ex employees ESPECIALLY for those products because IMAGINE THAT a bunch of the fucking documentation etc is missing and TRW doesn't have it either! (Quick! Look shocked!)


Basically the GE guy goes I'm not saying the design was sabotaged, but yeah it was sabotaged...


Robinson says they skull fucked a working design because colt paid better and i took the better pay, plus i heard ordnance did... Well exactly what they did to my designs regularly and outsiders were not welcomed with open arms...


The guy who presided over the breaking of the gun picked up his phone and immediately hung it up for the rest of his life... (Far from the only design he sabotaged from what i understand)


Don't get me wrong, i get your basic point here Sturgeon, but using that particular example is poor form because we know what happened there and it was outright sabotage whereas i could honestly see philco fucking up the otherwise excellent 235 design considering seargeant york ESPECIALLY!

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