Domichan Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 Hello all, I apologize for the fact that my first post is a question. I am a Dutch collector of medium and large calibre AP ammunition and I recently bought an 105mm APFSDS-T projectile, that is marked with the designation DM53. The 120mm DM53 is well known, but I cannot find any information on the 105mm DM53. I do know the IMI M426/DM63 round exists, for I have seen pictures of that, which would indicate that a DM53 would exist as well, in accordance with the way German ammo designations go. Questions to Rheinmetall, the Bundeswehr and various collector groups have remained unanswered. Among the experts here, is there anyone who has information on this type of APFSDS-T Round? Thank you in advance, Domichan Belesarius 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronezhilet Posted May 1, 2018 Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 Try asking the Kenniscentrum Wapensystemen en Munitie in 't Harde. Maybe they have someone who knows, they have a bunch of collectors and other experts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domichan Posted May 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 Thank you for the suggestion. I have contacted them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 Most of the German 105 mm APFSDS ammunition was made by Diehl BGT Defence rather than Rheinmetall; apparently Diehl produced the 105 mm DM13 APDS (licence production of a British design), the 105 mm DM23 APFSDS (licenced copy of the Israeli M111 "Hetz"), the 105 mm DM33 APFSDS (IMI M413) and the 105 mm DM63 (IMI M426). The 105 mm DM43 APFSDS was made by Rheinmetall however. I don't know who made the 105 mm DM53, maybe it never entered full service and was skipped like the 120 mm DM43 APFSDS. There is a projectile claimed to be from a 105 mm DM53 round on display in a German museum. FORMATOSE and Collimatrix 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronezhilet Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 Does that display even have a sign? I don't remember there being one, although it's been 2 years since I was there so my memory is probably faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronezhilet Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 9 hours ago, Domichan said: Thank you for the suggestion. I have contacted them. Whom did you contact there by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domichan Posted May 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 21 hours ago, SH_MM said: Most of the German 105 mm APFSDS ammunition was made by Diehl BGT Defence rather than Rheinmetall; apparently Diehl produced the 105 mm DM13 APDS (licence production of a British design), the 105 mm DM23 APFSDS (licenced copy of the Israeli M111 "Hetz"), the 105 mm DM33 APFSDS (IMI M413) and the 105 mm DM63 (IMI M426). The 105 mm DM43 APFSDS was made by Rheinmetall however. I don't know who made the 105 mm DM53, maybe it never entered full service and was skipped like the 120 mm DM43 APFSDS. There is a projectile claimed to be from a 105 mm DM53 round on display in a German museum. Thank you SH_MM, for the additional information. The projectile I have, has a completely different shape than the one pictured. The front part is slightly wider than the rest of the penetrator, similar to the looks of the 120mm DM33. 14 hours ago, Bronezhilet said: Whom did you contact there by the way? I contacted their general @mindef email address. No reply yet. I did manage to get a direct email address from someone who works there, if I don't get a reply shortly, I'll contact that person directly. I also contacted the Munitie Technologisch Museum in Landhorst. They did not have any information on this type and thought it might be an experimental type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronezhilet Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 4 hours ago, Domichan said: I contacted their general @mindef email address. No reply yet. I did manage to get a direct email address from someone who works there, if I don't get a reply shortly, I'll contact that person directly. I also contacted the Munitie Technologisch Museum in Landhorst. They did not have any information on this type and thought it might be an experimental type. Well get ready to type that mail because knowing our MoD, KCWM will never get your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domichan Posted May 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 Email sent. Hopefully, he will reply. I am also planning to vist the Wehrtechnische Sammlung in Cologne in a weeks time, I will check their library for any possible information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted May 6, 2018 Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 On 5/2/2018 at 6:51 PM, Bronezhilet said: Does that display even have a sign? I don't remember there being one, although it's been 2 years since I was there so my memory is probably faulty. I cannot remember either. However in another forum, where somebody posted all forums of his visit, he claimed that this was the 105 mm DM53. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domichan Posted May 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2018 I received a reply from the Gentleman working at the KCWM. The type is not known to them, so not tested in The Netherlands. The search continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronezhilet Posted May 9, 2018 Report Share Posted May 9, 2018 48 minutes ago, Domichan said: I received a reply from the Gentleman working at the KCWM. The type is not known to them, so not tested in The Netherlands. The search continues. Mind sending me a private message with whom you asked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domichan Posted May 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2018 Better late than never (I hope), a picture of the projectile: Zyklon, Bronezhilet, FORMATOSE and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domichan Posted May 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2018 Received a reply from the Wehr Technische Dienstelle 91, were they test ammunition for the Bundeswher, that this projectile is unknown to them. The search continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domichan Posted August 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) On 5/2/2018 at 11:39 AM, SH_MM said: Most of the German 105 mm APFSDS ammunition was made by Diehl BGT Defence rather than Rheinmetall; apparently Diehl produced the 105 mm DM13 APDS (licence production of a British design), the 105 mm DM23 APFSDS (licenced copy of the Israeli M111 "Hetz"), the 105 mm DM33 APFSDS (IMI M413) and the 105 mm DM63 (IMI M426). The 105 mm DM43 APFSDS was made by Rheinmetall however. I don't know who made the 105 mm DM53, maybe it never entered full service and was skipped like the 120 mm DM43 APFSDS. There is a projectile claimed to be from a 105 mm DM53 round on display in a German museum. Hi SH_MM, this is definitely not a 105mm projectile. Source: I saw it last sunday in the WTS museum in Koblenz. It looks like it is 25 or 30mm, does not have a type designation, but was something experimental. Forgot to take a picture of the sign. I'll do that when I visit it again. Very interesting museum for people interested in experimenta; weapons and prototype vehicles. I can recommend going there. My fingers on the display for size: https://imgur.com/UIFyFvP Edited August 13, 2018 by Domichan Add picture Ramlaen, Collimatrix, Xlucine and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH_MM Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 Oh... sorry for the mistake. This photo was posted on a German forum labeled as 105 mm DM53. Sorry for the stupid mistake, I should fact check their claims next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Ready Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 Does anybody have a sectional drawing of the DM63, 105 mm x 617? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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