Jump to content
Sturgeon's House
Donward

Terror Attacks and Active Shooter Events Thread

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I'm highly sceptical of an ISIS connection prior to the fact, but we've not seen much evidence one way or the other yet, so I suppose it is possible.

 

I didn't say ISIS, necessarily. Just saying it was unusually well planned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

If someone decided they wanted to own a fully automatic assault rifle, how much paperwork and money is involved?  Some of the news reports are saying he had up to eight rifles.  If these were all full auto rifles, I'm assuming there is a considerable cost to purchasing those legally.  

 

We're talking "new Mercedes" kind of money for one or two.

 

And for the record, given the dead/wounded ratio, my bet is that scumbag used some kind of LMG, not an assault rifle. But we don't yet know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not saying it's impossible, but the mental state that leads somebody to shoot into a crowd full of civilians doesn't usually overlap with the mental state that plans things long term and keeps them secret.

 

So yeah, agreeing with Sturgeon that there's probably some other angle to this. Guy probably had help and/or some ideological motive we haven't heard about yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

 

We're talking "new Mercedes" kind of money for one or two.

 

And for the record, given the dead/wounded ratio, my bet is that scumbag used some kind of LMG, not an assault rifle. But we don't yet know.

From what I could tell from the video clips, the bursts sounded longer than a single 30 round magazine.  So yeah, a LMG is a possibilty.

 

Something like this really makes one aware of the destructive potential of even small scale military hardware such as modern small arms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, LostCosmonaut said:

Not saying it's impossible, but the mental state that leads somebody to shoot into a crowd full of civilians doesn't usually overlap with the mental state that plans things long term and keeps them secret.

 

So yeah, agreeing with Sturgeon that there's probably some other angle to this. Guy probably had help and/or some ideological motive we haven't heard about yet.

 

I mean, the biggest candidate is of course ISIS. This is their MO, they've taken responsibility, etc. That doesn't mean anything, but like you said. The kind of guy who is both super duper brilliant and conniving AND who will unload a weapon into a crowd of people and then shoot himself in the face is, well, extremely rare. Much more likely he had help. And who's at the top of the list of "people who help crazies do awful shit like this?" Well, you know...

And that won't be uncovered for the next few days at best. Could be a week or two before we know exactly what was up. But this STINKS. It's an extremely unusual, extremely well-planned attack conducted in an unusually impersonal way (most active shooters like to be in conversation range of their victims). The shooter was extremely well equipped, in a way that suggest a systematic effort on some level.

 

Ultimately, everything I just said is speculation, though. We just don't know, and won't for a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could he have been used, I wonder, a willing or unwilling patsy of another actor?  He was conveniently dead by the time law enforcement arrived and there's no indication at present that he attempted to flee the scene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

From what I could tell from the video clips, the bursts sounded longer than a single 30 round magazine.  So yeah, a LMG is a possibilty.

 

So, here we see a gun with an ROF of about 700 RPM dump a 100 round Beta C in 8.5 seconds:

 

 

Starting at 0:54, we hear a burst that lasts for at least 10 seconds, and continues until the audio fades out:

 

 

That burst was at least 100 rounds. Now, an AR-15 on full auto will have an ROF of 700 RPM or higher, depending on the ammo used. Using military ammo, you can expect ROFs of 900 RPM or more. We don't know what ammo he was using. So an AR-15 firing weak-ish ammo with a beta drum is a possibility. But it's a thin one, IMO. That's a long burst, in that video...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Could he have been used, I wonder, a willing or unwilling patsy of another actor?  He was conveniently dead by the time law enforcement arrived and there's no indication at present that he attempted to flee the scene.

 

It's possible, but just speculation right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No link yet, but apparently the cops were saying in a News conference that they were legally purchased weapons modified to fire full auto illegally.

 

He was a gambler, apparently, and owned a couple of planes.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Belesarius said:

No link yet, but apparently the cops were saying in a News conference that they were legally purchased weapons modified to fire full auto illegally.

 

I heard that, and I find it unlikely, but then the cops would have the guns in their possession. The thing that's driving me nuts is the length of the bursts. They are extremely long. Longer than any drum I know for the AK. Longer than all drums for the AR-15, except the Armatac 150 SAW MAG. Which is itself weird... Scumbag apparently was trying to optimize kill time or something!?


If we're talking belt feds, semiauto examples of those are rare, and converting them to full auto is very difficult. So what's going on here!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you might well be in the ballpark with the 100rnd AR-15 drum, the ROF doesn't seem as high or consistent as the video you linked to, perhaps a semi-auto .223 with one of those winder things and a 100rnd drum?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I think you might well be in the ballpark with the 100rnd AR-15 drum, the ROF doesn't seem as high or consistent as the video you linked to, perhaps a semi-auto .223 with one of those winder things and a 100rnd drum?

 

The videos I've seen with clear audio of the actual gunfire (lacking the audio of projectile strikes and echoes) suggest an extremely consistent ROF. So I don't think we're talking a crank or SlideFire. Maybe, it's difficult to tell. But my inclination is towards a gun actually running cyclic.

 

While I'm speculating on poor evidence, I might as well say that the audio sounded much more like 7.62 than 5.56mm to me. Either 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 (they sound similar depending on the range and microphone). So, putting two-and-two together into a Baseless Speculation Soup, we could guess scumbag was set up with an M60 or M240.

Maybe not... I mean, what I just did is the worst kind of speculation. But I'm getting the heebie jeebies anyway.

 

I wanna see the fucking guns he used. That will calm me... I hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I've been trying to find clear audio, it seemed to me that the ROF drops very slightly after a couple of seconds then picks up again, but it's very difficult to tell.

 

I linked a video with very clear audio taken from the air. Check out the ROF, it's consistent.

 

Um, clarification for those who may not be aware, cyclic ROF is never totally consistent. It varies, as each round will have a slightly different propellant charge, and the gun's barrel heats up (which heats the ammo up, which improves the thermodynamic efficiency of the propellant, thereby increasing the force exerted on the operating mechanism).

 

Notice how this burst from an M240 picks up steadily:
 

 

Here's an AR-15 picking up:

 

 

More ROF variations with shitty ammo:

 

 

Contrast that with a crank:
 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ramlaen said:

Could he have bought a semi auto version of something belt fed and returned it to full auto?

 

Hypothetically yes, but if you have the money for a semiauto belt fed, you have the money for a full auto belt fed if you just save a little.

 

Also, "returned" is not the right word. In the US, it's the law that "once a machine gun always a machine gun". So semiauto belt-feds are new build weapons from the ground up. Converting them to full auto is difficult. They cost between $4,000-$9,000 anyway, so why not go the extra mile and get a transferable M60?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers for the heads-up.....Definitely explains what I thought I could hear, the M240B actually matches it quite well (you don't see too many of those in the UK, unless your dress sense is heavily focussed on camouflage). 

 

The cranks are totally different and I have to admit they do seem a bit pointless.....Maybe just use a few less bullets and actually put them on the target?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Authorities seized at least one full-automatic rifle and as many as 19 other firearms from the room, The Wall Street Journal reported, citing an unnamed law enforcement official. The cache included AR-15-style and AK-47-style rifles and a large amount of ammunition, according to the Journal. Sources also told ABC News that at least 19 firearms were discovered in the hotel room. Paddock is reported to have smashed hotel windows prior to the shooting with a hammer-like device. A law enforcement official said two rifles with scopes on tripods were found positioned in front of the broken windows.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock_us_59d1fec6e4b09538b5093cbf?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Walter_Sobchak said:

 

Well, that plays into my confirmation bias, but tbh I am not going to trust Huffpo's reporting... Or just about anyone else's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Cheers for the heads-up.....Definitely explains what I thought I could hear, the M240B actually matches it quite well (you don't see too many of those in the UK, unless your dress sense is heavily focussed on camouflage). 

 

The cranks are totally different and I have to admit they do seem a bit pointless.....Maybe just use a few less bullets and actually put them on the target?

 

Yeah, it occurred to me that, uh, not everyone here has played with those cranks. They are one of those things that sound flipping awesome until you actually try them. Then you find out they're lame, and you can get a higher rate of fire just shooting semiauto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×