The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Sturgeon]

The real question is are we going to see a rebuttal to the rebuttal?

I'm going on Ryan's radio show tomorrow to talk about it, so... Yeah, we will.

[Sturgeon]

Some more butthurt going on in the VP review comments:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/14/a-tale-of-two-volkspistoles-the-hk-vp9-vp40/#disqus_thread

I love the people saying I can't compare it to a Glock, because HKs are like made from steel fired in Mount Doom with polymer frames made from dinosaur petroleum or something.

[Khand-e]

People mad that their fanboy brand's new attempt to copy the Glock, only for more money ended up being worse and they can't accept that?

 

Oh god, H&K Fanboy tears are glorious, at least some of H&K's older designs were good, but unlike other companies who do the same, they rarely ever get called out for riding out on their older designs success.

 

Also, If you want to fanboy a German made striker fired pistol, at least pick the PPQ M2 which shits all over the VP in like every way possible, to the point whenever I see someone at a range with one, I feel overjoyed when they let me use it and am considering getting one of my own.

[Khand-e]

Also, since we're on topic, Taiwan's National Police Agency (basically their equivalent to the FBI/FBI HRT) adopted the Walther PPQ M2 quite recently, over competitiors including......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

......the VP9 (Also the Glock 19, which I find odd as the army uses a version of the G17, the M&P, the SIG 250,Taurus' 2 entries fucking shockingly, and a few others.)

 

http://www.storm.mg/article/73231

[Sturgeon]

I don't have time to watch Ian and Karl white knight for the Sturmgewehr until I get back from lunch, so I might lose it with anticipation. I hope they don't disappoint me, I'd like to see Karl's best Inglourious Basterds Hitler impression.

 

[Donward]

Assault rifle is a very arbitrary term. Were it not for the fact that it is a handy way to describe a bunch of semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines, I'd say get rid of the term.

 

Also, the fact that the "intermediate cartridge" is the defining characteristic is also hilarious.

[Sturgeon]

I'm starting it now. I gotta say, if my writing makes someone uncomfortable, I can't help but feel like that's a form of praise.

[Donward]

The worst part of the article was the title which wasn't your fault. That and it was in a Top Random number format. Started watching the Ian whoever Youtube Sturmgewehr defense article and the first 30 seconds in was a complaint about the click-baity article. At that point I realized I half-an-hour on a video is about 26 more minutes than I care to watch. Who do they think they are, Nutnfancy? 

[Brick Fight]

I'll still never get the accusation that the AK-47 was inspired by/is a copy of the MP 44. Don't they use completely different actions? I could see it maybe being a inspiration cosmetically, but I haven't heard anything but circumstantial evidence to support that.

[Sturgeon]

I mean, I could have fought Steve on the title, and my original title was still kind of in that format. You've gotta make a living, you know?

Plus, what else should I have titled it?

I'm eight minutes in, and y'all were right about the wehraboo logic. My whole argument about the ammo being no lighter was totally sidestepped in favor of a discussion about how it's more controllable. 

[Bronezhilet]

I'm eight minutes in, and y'all were right about the wehraboo logic. My whole argument about the ammo being no lighter was totally sidestepped in favor of a discussion about how it's more controllable. 

Also the thing of "Well, technically you're completely right... but we still disagree" is dumb as well. Sorry Ian and Karl, but your wehrabooism is showing.

[Sturgeon]

Wow, they are also completely wrong about there being any potential competition to the .30 Light Rifle besides .280 British.

[Sturgeon]

Also, that shit about how the Russians couldn't make assault rifles is BULLSHIT. What, they can make SVTs, but not cut them down, stick a 30 round mag of intermediate cartridges in them, and add a pistol grip? Give me a fucking break.

 

That bit about the Russians not being able to do stampings is a riot, too.

[Sturgeon]

Posted this comment on the video:
 

Well, there's a lot of stuff you address here that I never said. Since I want to represent myself properly, here's a list of stuff I didn't argue that you talk about in the video:

 

1. I never disputed that the MP.44 was the first assault rifle made in large quantities. I said it wasn't the first, which is important. In other words, the concept had already been around.

 

2. There's a long section where you talk about the controllability of the MP.44 and assault rifles by extension, which is never something I disputed.

 

3. You characterize my argument as "full auto is not useful", which runs directly contrary to the actual text I wrote. The actual argument I made is that full auto is situational, and the fantasy that some people have of MP.44-armed German troops blazing away and overwhelming the Allies is just that (especially since the Allies had effective fully automatic weapons, too). I very specifically target the idea that "had the MP.44 come sooner, the Allies would have been in trouble."

 

4. My point about many of the rifles not being used either because they weren't shipped to the front or because they lacked ammunition or magazines was not to say that the rifle wasn't present on the battlefield in large numbers. The point was that although 500K were made, the Germans had a very difficult time supplying their troops with the weapons, ammunition, and magazines, they had made. This was, as Karl mentioned, a problem for Germany across the board.

 

5. I never said the MP.44 was a waste of resources (besides the ones that did not see action, obviously). My point was that it makes sense that Germany would be the early adopter of radical concepts, because of the scatterbrained nature of their development and procurement system.

 

6. I never said that the MP.44 had a political doctrine.

 

7. Finally, at no point did I say that I thought the M1 or any other weapon for that matter was "better" than the MP.44, nor that I'd rather have something else if for some reason I was called to fight. In fact, I don't believe that, and I do recognize that the MP.44 is one of the best individual small arms of World War II (though it's not all alone at the top, things like the SKS and M2 Carbine come to mind). To put your mind at ease, Karl, yes, I'd rather go into battle with an MP.44 than an M1 rifle. 

 

Just to clear that up!

[Donward]

The ENTIRE hype over the Sturmgewehr is "If the Nazis had it by 1942, they'd have won the War".

That is the sum of its mystique.

Everything else is dressing and hand waving.

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

Are they a new type of Wehraboo, the hipster, gun, Wehraboo?  Just look at their facial hair.... 

[Bronezhilet]

 

Posted this comment on the video:

 

Well, there's a lot of stuff you address here that I never said. Since I want to represent myself properly, here's a list of stuff I didn't argue that you talk about in the video:

 

1. I never disputed that the MP.44 was the first assault rifle made in large quantities. I said it wasn't the first, which is important. In other words, the concept had already been around.

 

2. There's a long section where you talk about the controllability of the MP.44 and assault rifles by extension, which is never something I disputed.

 

3. You characterize my argument as "full auto is not useful", which runs directly contrary to the actual text I wrote. The actual argument I made is that full auto is situational, and the fantasy that some people have of MP.44-armed German troops blazing away and overwhelming the Allies is just that (especially since the Allies had effective fully automatic weapons, too). I very specifically target the idea that "had the MP.44 come sooner, the Allies would have been in trouble."

 

4. My point about many of the rifles not being used either because they weren't shipped to the front or because they lacked ammunition or magazines was not to say that the rifle wasn't present on the battlefield in large numbers. The point was that although 500K were made, the Germans had a very difficult time supplying their troops with the weapons, ammunition, and magazines, they had made. This was, as Karl mentioned, a problem for Germany across the board.

 

5. I never said the MP.44 was a waste of resources (besides the ones that did not see action, obviously). My point was that it makes sense that Germany would be the early adopter of radical concepts, because of the scatterbrained nature of their development and procurement system.

 

6. I never said that the MP.44 had a political doctrine.

 

7. Finally, at no point did I say that I thought the M1 or any other weapon for that matter was "better" than the MP.44, nor that I'd rather have something else if for some reason I was called to fight. In fact, I don't believe that, and I do recognize that the MP.44 is one of the best individual small arms of World War II (though it's not all alone at the top, things like the SKS and M2 Carbine come to mind). To put your mind at ease, Karl, yes, I'd rather go into battle with an MP.44 than an M1 rifle. 

 

Just to clear that up!

 

Comment is not showing up?

[Sturgeon]

No idea why not. Maybe they don't like it?

[Sturgeon]

Are they a new type of Wehraboo, the hipster, gun, Wehraboo?  Just look at their facial hair.... 

 

I note that Karl has brought back his Hitler Youth haircut. :\

[Tied]

Lets just say ian and fuckface mcweridbeard are damn lucky they live in a different country than i do, or else i would be making some very drunk, very angry call ins during their show 

[Alex C.]

I found their retort to be civil. They did not attack Nate's character or anything in a matter that would necessitate any nastiness.

 

If they had done something akin to what those gentlemen from Reddit did a while back then you could justify an angry response, but they didn't.

[Tied]

alright heres my official write-up, im drunk on cheeseburgers and liquor so excuse the spelling

 

1. "Mp-44 was fielded in large enough numbers to change combat doctrine"

 

- in what way other than having sub-machine gun armed troops having more accurate fire did it change jack. Now ian and fuckface are coming at this from a tatical standpoint, and i would agree that a German infantry squad quibbled with stg-44s does have a noticably large increase in volume of fire.

 

But the problem is that infantry on the modern battlefield are so fucking unimaginably fragile that unless millions of said infantrymen have this amount of volume of fire increased, its not going to change shit

Unlike the Americans who could issue the M1-garand in the millions, and the Russians who could issue far larger numbers of sub-machine guns than the Germans

 

You just have to think of this in strategic terms, not tactical

 

Lets say your assaulting a town, you infantry have to attack from outside of a forest about say 600 meters away from the first lines of defense for the town. How many of those infantrymen are going to be dieing from machine-gun fire alone

How many from rifle fire?

 

How many from any support assets (tanks, mortars, planes) 

 

How many infantrymen will fall before they even get a chance open fire at their enemies at any range where it matters

 

Infantry are useful when it comes to creating and occupying territory

 

A joke among me and my friends is that "Infantry create the lines, everything else is made to break them"

 

So when you get into ranges that it matters, if you exclude all other factors, the side with the greater volume of fire usually wins out

 

Think of it like this

 

Its a AH civil war battle, where one side, is predominately fielding muskets, with some level action repeating rifles spread in-between them here and there

 

And the other side is fielding bolt action rifles

Fact is, the side that is stacked full of soldiers with more rifles that can fire faster is usually going to beat the side with a few rifles that can fire extremely fast mixed in with a bunch of sluggers

 

But non of this matters if one side has such an advantage in artillery, positioning, tanks, machine guns or any other factors that chew infrantry up much, much faster than rifle rounds

 

So unless every other grunt who would be stuck with a Mauser gets his hands on a STG, its not going to matter. Because chances are the bloke with the STG is going to die to shrapnel or machine gun fire or the fact that the rest of his squad is still armed with mausers that just cant put out a large enough volume of fire

 

And even if every nazi under the sun had an stg, its still not going to guarantee them jack 

 

Look at Korea, where the US army learned the hard way that having lots of submachine guns is really useful, and having every rifleman trying to be some type sharpshooter isnt

 

The chinese still toke many, many more casualties. They had less artillery, less tanks, less aircraft and they never could compensate

 

It dosent matter if your high volume of fire ambush whips out a whole platoon, if the other guy can call artillery down to wipe out 5 platoons of your own, and you cant do jack

 

2. he said it was situational, which its is 

 

Though im a proud member of the full auto master race, thats with shooting groups of soda cans with 5.45, the round the STG-44 fires kicks up a hell of a lot more recoil. 

So the idea that your going to be doing anything but suppressible fire and door kicking with this is crazy

 

3. the 5 guys with garands vs 1 guy with an STG

 

Thats just not how wars are fought son, i dont know who told you otherwise

 

they are fought by the 3,000 guys with garands versus the 60 odd guys with STGs, and the rest with Kar-98s (this is excluding machine guns and submachine guns)

 

 

and since both sides are going to be losing alot of those guys before they infrantry even get in small arms range, i rather be on the side of the freedom 

 

And sure, i would choose the Stg over the Garand in a heartbeat

 

I would also choose the Panther over the Sherman

 

But this is for a 1v1 fantast fight

 

in real wars, you have other people behind you

 

and the side that wins is the side with the 10 or so garands for every STG and the side of 20 or so Shermans for every panther

 

and since i dont like the idea of surrending, sign me up for the m1 

 

4. "if you look at any other assualt rifle afterwords"

 

ah yes

 

The old "the Germans invented everything because post war arms look like them" line

 

Well there fuckface, i assume you would agree with the fact the germans invented the main battle tank

Because like the panther, future MBTs have slopped armor and torision bar suspension

 

But the fact is, much, much more goes into design than that

 

Just like though an AK looks like an STG, its the parts inside of it that count

 

5. "Russians cant stamp anything"

 

 

go fuck yourself

 

 

6. "Russians only use human wave attacks"

 

Its at this point i was embarrassed to learn i had missed the ten gallon hick hat fuckface was wearing, and i was still attempting to be objective with this video 

 

7. Would be useful today

 

Expect you would have the recoil of the commie with the AKM but you lack the realibality, you have the fragility of the guy with the m16 but lack the accuracy, and you lack the accuracy, recoil control, and satan approved wound profile of the commie with the AK-74

 

oh ya, totally close 

[Jeeps_Guns_Tanks]

oh ya, totally close

Boom, shit just got real, and I'm stuck going out to dinner

[Sturgeon]

I found their retort to be civil. They did not attack Nate's character or anything in a matter that would necessitate any nastiness.

 

If they had done something akin to what those gentlemen from Reddit did a while back then you could justify an angry response, but they didn't.

 

They sort of attacked my character, but it's not really something I'm worried about. I've watched it twice, it's a riot, really.

 

I will ask Tied to maybe change "fuckface" and any other insults to something else.

[Walter_Sobchak]

Also, tiger tanks stopped running because the ball bearing plants were bombed.  Um.....