Rico

4 hours ago, Laser Shark said:

Still no signs of the two Leo 2A7s (not sure if we’ll see the NO variant or if they’ll just bring a couple of German or Danish vehicles) that are supposed to take part in the winter trials a month from now, but in the meantime I can report that KMW have finally gotten around to update the Leo 2A7NO website that they took over earlier this year. It now matches the design and layout of their own website, but I'm not sure if there are other changes (corrected info etc.).

As far as I know it will not be a Danish 2A7 shipped to Norway. First batch is in preparation for eFP and second has some topics to solve.

Since K2NO is send with Trophy I was expecting to see 2A7A1 in Norway as well.

7 hours ago, SH_MM said:

 

With all the add-on armor Kodiak 3 becomes quite the chonky boy.

Oh yes lots of NERA AoA and new Rheinmetall RWS on top.

Still I can't get why Germany selected this on over Wisent since competitive test were quite bad but in the end it will be better than Leopard 1 AEV2 and they might improve performance during the project so let's wait how the result will be.

Is there any info how close it will be to Leo 2A7?

They have bridge layers as well but it takes time to cross an anti tank ditch with an AVLB.  Fascines are faster under some conditions than breaching with AEV or bridging. We are transporting fascines on our dozed blades to drop them quickly but limited in the about we can carry. Such a vehicle is very specialised but that is an bridge layer as well. 

16 hours ago, Laser Shark said:

 

Likely a weight saving measure. A while back it was reported that the Norwegian Public Roads Administration have been unwilling to permit the use of tanks/AFVs that are heavier than 62.5 tonnes on our roads, so vehicles like the Wisent 2 and new AVLBs cannot be used in their heaviest configurations. I also suspect that we’ll see similar weight saving measures on the proposed A7NO when it's eventually 

1 hour ago, Laser Shark said:

 

The AVLBs won’t be transferred to the Army before 2023-24, so it’s possible that this won’t be it’s final configuration. That said, I do find it weird that it doesn’t have APB instead of APU already. Even if it wasn’t necessary to reduce the weight of this vehicle (???), you’d think it would still be a good idea to standardise on one solution.

Having only one system makes absolutely sense since it shares HIM, eases maintenance

and the lithium pack reduces weight, noise and thermal emissions. Only reason for an APU would be if the AVLB needs long term 17kW power for silent watch which is not the case. 

We are currently having that discussion as well. Some are aiming towards APU because that is already in use but I think that the diesel engine will not be availble in the future anymore. Lithium is clearly the path to go for - on my opinion.

14 hours ago, Laser Shark said:

 

Likely a weight saving measure. A while back it was reported that the Norwegian Public Roads Administration have been unwilling to permit the use of tanks/AFVs that are heavier than 62.5 tonnes on our roads, so vehicles like the Wisent 2 and new AVLBs cannot be used in their heaviest configurations. I also suspect that we’ll see similar weight saving measures on the proposed A7NO when it's eventually revealed.

I thought the AVLB might have a higher similarity with your Wisent 2s. Based on your picture they have an APU and 570 track instead of lithium pack and 571 track.  

Meanwhile Boxer ARV is tested in UK

and Rheinmetall showcases an exchange tool for Boxer modules

Will it be crews from Norway operating it during trails? Will be pretty hard to beat a Leo 2A4NO which seems to be still superior in snow and eFP (when tested against all other NATO tanks).

On 10/6/2021 at 1:10 PM, Laser Shark said:

62 tonnes

Yes, this seems to be the weight baseline for Norwegian MBT project. Seems easier for the K2 to fulfill.

The Kappa system has really great pictures. I was told that they are used in aerospace as well. Quality is better than some weapon stations I've seen but I think the price is high as well. So other vehicles will most likely stick to SAAB or Spectus.

Most interesting statement I got was that their ARV won in recovery and engineering competitions in eFP beating all other Leo 1 and Leo 2 based vehicles in service in Germany and Netherlands. Looking forward to fight that beast with my ARV.

There is no Leopard 2A7NO right now. This vinter a Leo 2A7 will compete against K2M in a qualification test which will lead to a purchase decision.

Based on their AEV it was fitted for Tarian RPG protection and E-tech armor.

There are a few things the Norwegians already use that are different to 2A7 right now regarding weight. I had a chance to see their WiSENT 2 AEV and saw that they use 571 instead of 570 track. This is 420 kg less. They use a Lithium battery pack instead of APU which is 120kg less. 

Side skirts are much lighter as well.

So there are many ways to reduce weight.

Depends.

Qatar's 2A7+ has a RWS (FLW200) and SA cams.

German 2A7 had a Front and rear camera when shown in Munich 2019 but never had a RWS.

Looks pretty immature this K600 vehicle compared to known mine breacher vehicles with all that open cables and hydraulic hoses. 

10 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

Interesting information about WZM. I cannot imagine that KMW would give them a license to produce Leopard 2 A7V. I believe they wanna make the business on there own.

As far as I remember WZM and FFG teamed to produce WiSENT at WZM. Not sure how the current status is but demonstration was done years ago in DK.

https://www.defence24.com/polish-army-eyes-acquisition-of-heavy-armoured-recovery-vehicles

Coming back to the topic.

From a strategic points it is not bad to have Poland focussing on MBTs.

I think from a NATO (or EU - to take Sweden and Finnland into account) perspective it makes actually sense that way.

Sulwalki gab is our most important defence line which was not able to hold for more than a few days acc. to Polish simulations - which will significantly change based on that M1 deal.

Whereas the Baltics have 0 chance to hold line in that scenario as well which is why their acquisitions focus on howitzers (K9, M109, PzH2k) which are used to delay enemy movements.

Germany is in that role to bring in quick response forces (which is maybe not their key ability) but they are training that together with Poland and US (Noble Jump). Further this is a key element of every eFP rotation.

In general I agree with many things you said especially regarding Polish industry and military losing a lot but I still think that we shouldn't see that negative.

- US are the main eFP support in Poland. Means they are working together closely which will benefit if they share material usage (M1, M88 and other support vehicles that might be covered by this deal).

US are spending a lot of money in Poland which is paid back in some way right now (Trump logic).

- Poland gets some real security boot on short term (Leo 2A7 would mean 5-7 years until the first ones would have arrived - and PiS is doing politics against Germany for a long time so Leo2 wouldn't be an option until different party takes over).

- Leo 2 wins against K2 because Poland and Norway will not acquire it (speculation I know)

- MGCS wins because Italian initiative is losing speed if Poland goes for M1 and Italy/Spain might join (speculation I know)  

Relax guys. I do honestly think that it is something good for NATO and Europe as well. 

It is a clear statement towards Baltics and all neighbours and a clear message towards Russia.

Doesn't't matter if EU partly paid for this (including myself) or not.

Interesting discussion regarding K2/L2 but too much techical arguments.

You need to see it that way.

K2 is challenging L2 so it needs to be >way better< than L2 to win (not just a bit). Which is not the case

Whereas

- Leo 2A7V is available in numbers which has proven its capability.

- K2NO isn't existing in hardware right now which is a very high risk (now that Poland left) to go with for a "small" user nation.

- Topics like 130mm and APU are future music so far.

-> Big point - K2 is not NATO whereas all neighbours are using Leo 2A7 or 2A6.

-> Industry cooperation is the game winner in that acquisition (as Laser Shark already wrote -which KMW has already shown in Stridsvogn 122 project).

= So as long as Leo 2A7 fulfills the requested requirements there is 0% chance for the K2 to win except K2 offeres extraordinary industry cooperation.

13 hours ago, Laser Shark said:

 

And now that it's been confirmed, I'd say that the K2's chances of being selected is getting comparable to that of a snowball in hell.

Still I would like to see L2 and K2 being compared against each other to see what the K2 is like.

On 4/28/2021 at 5:12 PM, Laser Shark said:

K2NO <> Leo 2A7NO

Looks like a decision is likely to be influenced from the outside.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/07/09/poland-could-purchase-m1-abrams-tanks-from-us/

Welcome to Rheinmetall lobbyism which will clearly end in Lynx being chosen.

I am not saying it is a bad choice but if military aspects would count CV90 would be the way to go for.

Any informations about that IFV available?

Is there any current feeling/rumours/in between statements how Redback and Lynx are doing and which one is doing better?

6 hours ago, DIADES said:

Really???  Leopard 1??

Nothing strange about it. NATO is still using a lot of them - not MBTs but ARVs, BARV, AEVs, AVLBs etc.

Denmark, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latwia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands and Germany have hundreds still in service (just to name a few countries I am certain about).

Büffel is a Bergepanzer 3 (Leo2 chassis) but they got some Bergepanzer 2 (Leo1 chassis) for their Leo 2A4 (leasing to train Leo2 until Leo 2A7 arrive).

Poland got 28 Bergepanzer 2 when they got Leo2A4 and 2A5 from Germany. Seems like they need some more power for those and upgrade them.

Hungary indends to use Buffel for Lynx and Wisent 2 for Leopard 2A7.

No idea why since Lynx has much lesser weight than Buffel/Wisent2.

Assume they got the Buffels for free in the Lynx deal since Wisent 2 was ordered a year upfront.

Let's wait and see then. I have been told that FFG is including lots of weight reduction measures and I guess that Leo 2 will do some sports to loose weight as well. 

Looking forward to hear the outcome of upcoming vintertests. 
So if K2 outperforms Leo 2 I will appologize for my critic but don't blame me for being the one joking if Norway is the only one operating a orphant tank in 2030.