politics Post Election Thread: Democracy Dies In Darkness And You Can Help

[SuperComrade]

That's exactly what it is. Hell, there have probably been more terrorist attacks conducted by Chechens on US soil than by Syrians, Iraqis, or Iranians.

[Ramlaen]

I'm fairly sure there's been only one terrorist attack (the recent OSU stabbing attack) on American soil that's perpetrator was a national of one of the 7 nations that were included in the ban. 

 

The lack of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, to me, shows that the ban isn't serious in fighting terrorism and is more of a pandering move towards his base. 

 

I agree about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan being given the sacred cow treatment, but all of the countries that are subject to the temporary ban are either on the US governments official list of state sponsors of terror, and/or have immigrants/refugees that have committed or plotted terrorist attacks in recent years, and/or have ISIS controlled territory.

[SuperComrade]

1) Without Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan on the list, it cannot be a serious measure against terrorism, and is thus entirely pointless.

 

2)

 

have immigrants/refugees that have committed or plotted terrorist attacks in recent years

Do you have any idea at all how much broader the list should be in that case?

Why only those countries? Why not Egypt? Where did the terrorists who conducted 9/11 come from? Why are Chechens allowed in?

[Priory_of_Sion]

I agree about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan being given the sacred cow treatment, but all of the countries that are subject to the temporary ban are either on the US governments official list of state sponsors of terror, and/or have immigrants/refugees that have committed or plotted terrorist attacks in recent years, and/or have ISIS controlled territory.

Saudi Arabia, the unlisted Gulf States, and Pakistan are the serious exporters of Salafi Jihadism and are all excluded. 

 

As noted earlier, the immigrants/refugees from the 7 listed nations have killed exactly 0 people in terror attacks.  

 

Afghanistan, Egypt, and Nigeria have ISIS territory and are excluded, so that last point seems really arbitrary. 

[Ramlaen]

Do you have any idea at all how much broader the list should be in that case?

 

For the sake of discussion go ahead and list the countries that fit this category that have not already been mentioned.

[SuperComrade]

Like you pointed out, it's pretty much just symbolic pandering. In fact, it might be making US security worse by enraging people who *can* get into the US from those other countries, which are the ones that have historically conducted terrorist attacks anyway.

[Donward]

Again gentlemen, The House of Saud and Pakistan given their oil production with the former and possession of nukes and controlling the air space into Afghanistan require a different tactic and have to be done delicately whether we like it or not. 

 

Of the seven countries, six are basically failed nation states. And Iran is Iran. In other words, those seven are low hanging fruit.

 

As always, view this as one step in a certain direction. (Whether you like it or not). Complain or cheer when the second, third and fourth steps are taken.

[Priory_of_Sion]

I like how including Iran steepens my paranoia about going to war with them within the next 4 years 

[Ramlaen]

As noted earlier, the immigrants/refugees from the 7 listed nations have killed exactly 0 people in terror attacks. 

 

'It only counts if they were successful', c'mon now.

 

Like I said, I agree that certain countries are being given sacred cow treatment (for political reasons) despite how overt their participation has been.

[Donward]

I like how including Iran steepens my paranoia about going to war with them within the next 4 years 

 

Trump is going to need John McCain's support at some point in his Administration you know...

 

[SuperComrade]

For the sake of discussion go ahead and list the countries that fit this category that have not already been mentioned.

 

have immigrants/refugees that have committed or plotted terrorist attacks in recent years

Okay, let's see. On plotted or committed terrorist attacks on US soil only:

Russia (Chechnya, especially)

Britain

Bangladesh

Lebanon

Guyana

Jordan

Nigeria

Albania

Kosovo

Morocco

Do you know where the vast majority of the people on this list came from? Pakistan.

I am also not including countries whose citizens have joined IS or have supported and aided them, or whose citizens committed or plotted terrorist attacks on foreign soil (but not in the US).

 

[SuperComrade]

Again gentlemen, The House of Saud and Pakistan given their oil production with the former and possession of nukes and controlling the air space into Afghanistan require a different tactic and have to be done delicately whether we like it or not. 

 

Of the seven countries, six are basically failed nation states. And Iran is Iran. In other words, those seven are low hanging fruit.

 

As always, view this as one step in a certain direction. (Whether you like it or not). Complain or cheer when the second, third and fourth steps are taken.

 

Oh, I view this as one step in a certain direction. Denying legal permanent residents and people already granted visas into your country is definitely a very bold step in a certain direction.

It also doesn't answer why he hasn't banned Muslims from Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, the Central Asian Muslim states, Indonesia, Jordan, Qatar, the UAE, etc.

[Priory_of_Sion]

'It only counts if they were successful', c'mon now.

 

Like I said, I agree that certain countries are being given sacred cow treatment (for political reasons) despite how overt their participation has been.

Wikipedia's list of unsuccessful terrorist attacks in the US don't include any citizens from any of the 7 countries fwiw 

 

Oh, the Minnesota Mall stabbing was also done by a Somali immigrant. So that's 2 attacks total with 0 deaths. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Priory_of_Sion

[Ramlaen]

Trump is going to need John McCain's support at some point in his Administration you know...

 

 

Ah yes, the senile warhawk who became a senator despite trying to sink his own carrier.

[Priory_of_Sion]

Trump is going to need John McCain's support at some point in his Administration you know...

 

Yep. The anti-Trump Republicans would love to bomb Iran and you'd probably get the Chuck Schumer to go along with it to with a sizable Dem contingent. 

[SuperComrade]

It's pretty damn ridiculous to tell someone who has already been granted a visa or permanent residence that they can't enter the country when they haven't committed a crime or there is no evidence that they are planning to commit one at all. It's basically telling them that the government's word means absolutely nothing at all. It's unprecedented in any functioning country I can think of.

It's not like the US doesn't vet visas and green cards from those countries very carefully. The ones that it historically DOESN'T vet carefully are, surprise, surprise, the ones from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

[Ramlaen]

Wikipedia's list of unsuccessful terrorist attacks in the US don't include any citizens from any of the 7 countries fwiw 

 

Oh, the Minnesota Mall stabbing was also done by a Somali immigrant. So that's 2 attacks total with 0 deaths. 

 

You know better than treating wikipedia as the ultimate authority on matters.

[Ramlaen]

It's not like the US doesn't vet visas and green cards from those countries very carefully.

 

The vetting process isn't working as it should, which is why this temporary ban is being done while the vetting process is reviewed and the screening process is improved.

 

 

It's unprecedented in any functioning country I can think of.

 

Are you saying Trump is the first politician to (temporarily) ban immigrants?

[SuperComrade]

And your evidence that it is not working as it should is what exactly? The 0 attacks conducted or foiled by Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians, and Yemenis since 2001?

[SuperComrade]

The vetting process isn't working as it should, which is why this temporary ban is being done while the vetting process is reviewed and the screening process is improved.

 

 

Are you saying Trump is the first politician to (temporarily) ban immigrants?

I am almost certain he is the first president to actually bar people who have already been granted entry into a country from actually entering that country

[Ramlaen]

And your evidence that it is not working as it should is what exactly? The 0 attacks conducted or foiled by Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians, and Yemenis since 2001?

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131

[Priory_of_Sion]

You know better than treating wikipedia as the ultimate authority on matters.

Yep, that's why I included the obligatory "fwiw"

 

Regardless I have issues with government honeypotting people into committing crimes. 

[SuperComrade]

Dozens out of 70,000 is pretty damn good. Maybe you can show me a way guaranteed to exclude 100% of terrorists?

[Ramlaen]

Dozens out of 70,000 is pretty damn good. Maybe you can show me a way guaranteed to exclude 100% of terrorists?

 

If you are going to continue moving goalposts we will be here all day.

[SuperComrade]

If you are going to continue moving goalposts we will be here all day.

Who is moving goalposts here?

You said vetting is not strict enough. How strict is strict enough?