Jump to content
Sturgeon's House

The future of PLA bullit spitting devices: Powerful Chinese weapons and infantry units/LEO thread.


Recommended Posts

Note: I decided I'll make a separate thread about Taiwan at a later date so it's less cluttered.


So yeah, I made a vehicle and vehicle weapons thread, might aswell make a small arms thread dedicated to the PLA too, while the focus is on the newest and upcoming generation, I may add some older designs when I feel like it.


11/28/14 Made some slight updates after receiving new information.


So, let's start off with the 5.8x42mm round, which as you probably know, is the latest round issued to front line troops and, while it's in essence a SCHV round, Olifant and I have decided is supposed to act like a GPC in the PLA's doctrine (why GPC advocates think a SCHV is completely incapable of being a GPC is a mystery.) How does it perform?


Well, This 6mm projectile (Sorry Olifant, I had to do it!) has 2 main variants, the "Short" standard 72 grain round, the DBP-10, which replaced the older, lighter 64 grain DBP-97/95 rounds in service and will eventually replace the DBP-88. (see below) It features a "special hard" H90 double copper/brass layered steel cored gliding metal jacket, which is very hard by bullet jacket standards and allows it to stay together under high stress, a hard cast lead-antimony fused core and an improved sub caliber hardened tool steel penetrator superior to that from the 87 and 95, the core is approximately 4mm wide which combine to give this round excellent armor/material penetration (12+mm RHA at 300mm, compared to 10mm in the older series) and "barrier blind" characteristics. Because of several aerodynamic improvements over the older 87 and 95 series, This is also a quite accurate round with a flat trajectory and excellent energy retention over long distances. It's also worth noting that, because the pressure is significantly increased in the DBP-10 compared to the older rounds from 42,000 psi to 58,000-60,000 psi, it maintains It's rather impressive velocity of 3,000-3,050 feet per second from standard service rifles (18.5 inch barrel and 20.5 inch respectively) despite the heavier round. Giving it an overall muzzle energy of around 1,500 ft/lbs or just over 2,000 joules. for comparison, the 5.56x45mm M855A1 weighing 62 grains gets 2,970 feet per second from a 14.5 inch M4A1 barrel for 1215 ft/lbs or around 1650 joules (I Don't know how fast it travels from the M16 unfortunately), and the 5.45x39mm 7N22 from a 16.5 inch AK-74M barrel achieves 3,000 feet per second, for 1140 ft lbs or around 1550 joules (math is rounded mind you, I'm lazy), so while the 5.8x42mm does get slightly higher raw performance then It's 2 main counterparts as advertised, which is helped by the longer barrel lengths used by the PLA's service weapons, It's not a massive advantage really.


And, while the DBP-10 does have alot going for it, it does also have it's flaws, the most prominent being that the design that gives it excellent material penetration and barrier blind ability means it doesn't tend to shatter like other high velocity rounds upon hitting softer flesh, usually ice picking right through a target leaving an exit hole only slightly larger then the entrance, the DBP-10 is noted to have slightly better terminal effectiveness then the 87 and 95  (partially due to the longer, more tail heavy bullet being more likely to yaw/causing a bigger wound channel when it does in soft flesh and when shattering bone), though this wasn't a massive priority in the design.





And the "Long" Heavy round meant for MGs and Sniper/DM Rifles, the DBP-88. This 77 grain projectile can't be used in the standard QBZ-95 rifle, carbine, or the QBZ-03 rifle due to the fact it's about 6mm longer then the standard projectile on account of the extended tool steel penetrator that starts in the nose as opposed to the base like the DBP-87 and 95, however, this heavy, long bullet is perfect for sharpshooters and machine guns that can suppress from far away, as the bullet offers even better energy retention, flatter trajectory, very good accuracy, and retains it's penetration power quite well compared to the DBP-87 and 95, being able to still punch through 3-4mm of RHA at 1km (may not sound like much, but for a small round that's pretty good.)  this particular version is set to be scrapped as the PLA wants ammo standardization between all weapons, However, There's some evidence that a dedicated "Match Grade" round will be made for 5.8mm DMRs and Sniper rifles, previously thought to be an Ap round but that's no longer believed to be the case.


Updates: I've found some new documentation that surprisingly suggests the DBP-10 isn't just a compromise round between the DBP-95 and DBP-88, but actually outperforms it in basically every category, almost assuring the DBP-88 will infact be retired as planned/


First off, the main service rifle, the QBZ-95-1, aka the best Bullpup style AR.ever.






QBZ-95-1 Rifle and QBZ-95G Carbine




QBZ-97 Export model with a flat top kit. (note the STANAG mag well and how much deeper it runs.)




Actual FTU kit installed on older QBZ-95.




With various accessories. (a vertical and angled foregrip also exists but isn't shown here.)


So yeah, bow down inferior bullpup rifles to your clear overlord, the QBZ-95-1 is, as you may have guessed from the name, an improvement from the older QBZ-95 first seen in 2010, mainly addressing feedback regarding ergonomic comfort and controls, aswell as some other improvements like a thicker barrel with an improved muzzle brake,this rifle will rule you, it has plenty of accessories for almost any mission yet keeps modularity to a reasonable level, is very reliable and quite durable, pretty accurate (not amazing, but for a service rifle its quite decent) while also featuring light recoil due to it's well made recoil buffering system, and is quite light and rather spacious, and somewhat simple, however easy to use iron sights.


The Carbine variant is mostly the same, however it does fire notably faster under the same circumstances as the full size rifle, one oddity however is that the front handguard is so short on the carbine variant it actually has nowhere to mount the 35mm grenade launcher or bayonet the full sized rifle can.


Specifications to sperg over


Caliber - 5.8x42mm DBP-10 (5.56x45mm using STANAGs in the QBZ-97 export variants)


Official rate of fire - 650-750 rpm for older variants, 700-750 for QBZ-95-1 on fully automatic. (800-900 rpm for QBZ-95G)


Action - Gas operated, rotating bolt with short stroke piston.


Fire modes - Semi automatic - 3 round burst (optional) - fully automatic.


Magazine capacity - 30 round box magazine


Barrel Length - 20.5" (14.5" for QBZ-95G)


Overall length - 745mm (610mm for QBZ-95G)


Weight - 3.00 kg (6.6 lbs)  (2.7/6.0 lbs for QBZ-95G) Unchambered with an empty magazine inserted.


Effective Range - 600m point targets (400m for QBZ-95G)


Note to the above, I made a mistake on the weights and quoted the older versions which are heavier, it's been corrected.




I'll add content as I feel like doing so.


Be sure to check my other topics covering other branches of the PLA


http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/80-the-plan-present-and-future-or-the-rapid-modernization-of-the-chinese-navy-and-marines/- Regarding the Navy, Marines, and Weapons used by them and also land based anti ship defense systems.


http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/10-vehicles-of-the-pla-or-glorious-fear-mongering-about-china-over-wars-that-will-probably-not-happen-now-with-content/- Regarding land based vehicles, armor, and weapon systems


http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/87-the-plaaf-and-airborne-a-look-at-the-past-present-and-the-future/- Regarding the PLAAF Aircraft and weapon systems, helicopters, and the Airborne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Khand, looks like you made a mistake. I'm fairly certain the bullet on the right in this picture is actually DBP-10, please confirm/deny:



The two on the left are clearly DBP-87, but the ones on the right are consistent with the diagrams I've seen for the DBP-10. I was under the impression that the -88 was something else entirely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Conclusion to the above after discussing it: the above is not a DBP-10, this is evident in the fact the DBP-10 has a very sturdy copper (or, brass if you will) alloy jacket known as H90 which is not present on that projectile.


And for a very reasonable price (and minimum order of at least 5 metric tons), you, too, can make bullet jackets out of this wonderous alloy grade!



Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm? No, the one on the right very definitely is DBP-10. The DBP-10 jacket is made from the H90 gilding metal alloy, which that bullet has.

The confusion was over the other cartridge in the original source of that image, which is probably DBP-88, but I'm not sure.


I have my doubts the left round is DBP-88 for some various reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, the left round is DBP-87.


No offense but you worded it kind of poorly, anyway, I got this asking around on Tiexue.




Left to right: Steel cored 7.62x54mm, Steel cored 7.62x39mm, DBP-95 (corrected, at least according to the post on it), and almost certainly DBP-88 (notice how far the core protrudes up the nose, and how, despite being seated so deeply in the case It's still actually longer then DBP-87, also the case has an incorrect primer pocket for what the DBP-10 case uses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No offense but you worded it kind of poorly, anyway, I got this asking around on Tiexue.




Left to right: Steel cored 7.62x54mm, Steel cored 7.62x39mm, DVP-95 (corrected, at least according to the post on it), and almost certainly DVP-88 (notice how far the core protrudes up the nose, and how, despite being seated so deeply in the case It's still actually longer then DVP-87, also the case has an incorrect primer pocket for what the DBP-10 case uses.


Yes, that's DBP-88. Note that it is not the same as the cartridge I listed as DBP-10, which has a gilding metal jacket, Berdan priming, and copper washed steel case, all of which are consistent with one variant of DBP-10. The thing that's confusing me is that the bullet of the cartridge I have listed as DBP-10 looks like it should be heavier than that of the cartridge I think is DBP-88. This shouldn't be the case; DBP-88 has a 5g bullet and DBP-10 has a 4.6g bullet. I do not know why this is, the cartridge I list as DBP-10 is consistent with the description of DBP-10 that I have heard. If it is in fact DBP-88, it is a variant of DBP-88 I have never even heard of before (no DBP-88 to my knowledge has a GM jacket nor a CWS case).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyway, this has caused alot of uncertainty on photos of 5.8mm cartridges, to the point I'm going to do alot research into the DBP-10 to find anything I potentially missed, which happens often due to mistranslations and other issues.


Here's one good example in my next feature (I know I said the QBZ-03, but want to do this.) the Squad Automatic Weapon variant of the QBZ-95-1, the QBB-95-1




This is obviously, as stated above, based on the QBZ-95-1 family, the main differences being that it has a more robust frame and construction, and includes things such as a sturdier bolt, a longer, heavier barrel (23.5") with an integrated bipod that allows for longer, more reliable sustained fire an increased muzzle velocity of 3,200 feet per second with DBP-10, and the ( obsolete soon, see above) feature to tolerate and feed the DBP-88 heavy round unlike it's rifle and carbine counterparts, although it can still use the standard 30 round box magazines.


Why did I choose this as an example of mistranslations affecting reliable data? well, It uses drum magazines primarily to fulfill It's SAW role better, however, many western sources quote the drum magazine at 75 rounds, a few however quote it at 80 rounds, you'd think since 75 gets quoted more often it would be correct, but....80 is actually correct, the reason this happened was because of confusions with some western sources confusing it's drum capacity with the older, design improved versions of the 7.62x39mm RPK/Type 81 drums, the thinner 5.8mm round allowed the drums intended for it to be slightly redesigned internally for a few extra rounds.


Moral of the story is...Mandarin to English and vice versa being very difficult compared to other languages, coupled with the fact you're dealing with military topics which have some secrecy to them at times can lead to alot of mistakes that get stated as fact, some minor, some large.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, start with the smaller guys this time around, Pistols and SMGs/PDWs.


Anyway I posted this a while back, but this is the next generation of the QSZ-92 pistol, simply designated the Qx4.




Now, aside from a few things that, in addition to 5.8x21mm and 9x19mm Luger, It's also scheduled to be made in several export calibers such as .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 SIG and even 7.62x25mm Tokarev, (infact, it was originally slated to be export only until fairly recently) It also features a variety of product improvements to keep up with soldier feedback.


Anyway, the main history behind the weapon and the 5.8x21mm cartridge is rather simple, when the round was being drawn up, it was required to be an accurate, flat shooting round able to penetrate most enemy body armor at close range, while having a lower muzzle flash, sound, and recoil then the older 7.62x25mm and the 5.7x28mm NATO uses to allow for rapid, accurate fire and faster target acquisition and engagement, and being able to deliver a wound considered worse then that given from a standard 9x19mm Ball round (Considering pistol ball doesn't quite perform well, this one was surprisingly easy.)




The solution was the above, which is the 5.8x21mm DAP-92 AP cartridge. It does have less muzzle flash, recoil, and sound report then a Five-Seven, and for the most part, uses a heavier AP round, though this gives the Five Seven a bit of an edge on Energy and quite a bit of a velocity advantage, The relatively heavy round for a PDW AP round is there for a reason though, the theory being that, at the expected velocities it will achieve, combined with the fact the weight of the round is centered near the back will cause it to yaw in soft flesh almost immediately, in Chinese tests yawing supposedly starts at as little as after 1cm of penetration into flesh, leaving an exit wound behind up to 2.5 times larger overall then 9mm ball.




9mm Ball 124 grain.




5.8x21mm DAP-92




Entrance and Exit for 5.8x21mm DA92


As far as the projectile goes technical wise, It's a 45 grain (3g) grain spitzer point design with a copper washed steel jacket (and case), a hardened tool steel core that runs most of the forward length, and a lead base in the back, this is what shifts the weight near the back, while also helping to keep It's trajectory rather flat if fired a bit downrange. Aside from being able to penetrate any soft body armor (and some weaker "hard" armors) it's been put up against, It's been demonstrated from a pistol barrel (while fixed to a benchrest) to be able to penetrate a 1.5mm Helmet steel plate (sometimes quoted at 1.3mm) with 50mm of hardened pine wood behind it... what exactly the point of this test was I'm not certain, as the effective range of the pistol is only supposed to be around 50m *shrug*.


And yet, despite all this effort to make a 9mm replacement for military units are restricted to FMJs and other crap for pistols....many units ironically still use the 9mm version of the QSZ-92.


Specifications. (QX4 version)


Weight - 1.7 pounds/760 grams


Overall Length - 7.5 inches/190mm


Barrel Length - 4.4 Inches/111mm


Width - 1.38 inches/35mm


Height - 5.3 inches/135mm


Sights - Fixed 3 dot, night lit sights an option.


Action - Short recoil, locked breech, rotating barrel lock.


Calibers (In PLA service) 5.8x21mm, 9x19mm Luger


Calibers (Export models) 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 9x19mm Luger, .357 SIG, .40 S&W, .45 ACP.


Effective Range - 50m+ (5.8x21 and 9x19mm Luger.)


Performance - 5.8x21mm DAP92 - 45 grains (3g) @ 1,610 feet per second (260 Ft/lbs./ 350 Joules), 9x19mm Luger FMJ - 124 grains @ 1,150 fps. (365 ft/lbs./~500 joules).


Magazine Capacities - 20 rounds (5.8x21mm), 15 rounds (9x19mm Luger)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

HJ-12 135mm top attack anti tank missile.


They attempted to debut the model earlier this year at a French air show, but got told no after finding out they intended to bring a live missile system to display. Itwasn't hindered this time at the Zhuhai airshow however.


(Note that HJ = Hong Jian, which means Red Arrow in English, this is a common designation for guided anti tank missiles)


Range: 2000-4000m


Length(Missile): 1.00m




Weight(Missile): 17kg


Guidance/Operation: Infrared Imaging and CCD, Top attack or direct fire capable.


Charge/Fuze: Tandem Heat with 1,100 RHAe behind ERA penetration, Impact fuzed.



Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

The badlands out west.




Note that seeing as how a massive percentage of China's population is on the eastern coast or close to it, and to a lesser extent the central lands, Western based units often get shafted when it comes to priority to modernize or get newly developed equipment with the exception of a few units to guard the border and just keep control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Police Anti riot/Counter terrorism drills, the men being "arrested" are merely other police units playing as OPFOR and aren't actually being arrested. (They'd likely be dead at the scene if they were terrorists, Chinese SWAT/the PAP have no mercy on terrorists.)


Also note they're using QBZ-95s and not QBZ-95-1, I guess some police units haven't modernized yet.










Also.... This.



Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Similar Content

    • By Beer
      I haven't found an appropriate thread where to put some interesting rare stuff related to WW2 development, be it industrial one or makeshift field modifications. 
      Let's start with two things. The first one is a relatively recently found rarity from Swedish archives - a drawing of ČKD/BMM V8H-Sv tank. The drawing and a letter was found by WoT enthusiasts in Swedish archives in 2014 (the original announcement and the drawing source is here). The drawing is from a message dated 8th September 1941. One of the reasons why this drawing was not known before may be that the Czech archives were partially destroyed by floods in 2002. Anyway it is an export modification of the V-8-H tank accepted into Czechoslovak service as ST vz.39 but never produced due to the cancelation of all orders after Münich 1938 (for the same reason negotiations about licence production in Britain failed). Also later attempt to sell the tank to Romania failed due to BMM being fully busy with Wehrmacht priority orders. The negotiations with Sweden about licence production of V8H-Sv lasted till 1942, at least in May 1942 Swedish commission was present in Prague for negotiations. The tank differed compared to the base ST vz.39 in thicker armor with different front hull shape (armor 60 mm @ 30° on the hull front and also 60 mm on the turret; all sides were 40 mm thick). The tank was heavier (20 tons) and had the LT vz.38 style suspension with probably even larger wheels. The engine was still the same Praga NR V8 (240-250 Hp per source). The armament was unchanged with 47 mm Škoda A11 gun and two vz.37 HMG. The commander's cupola was of the simple small rotating type similar to those used on AH-IV-Sv tankettes. It is known that the Swedes officially asked to arm the tank with 75 mm gun, replace the engine with Volvo V12 and adding third HMG to the back of the turret. In the end the Swedes decided to prefer their own Strv/m42. 

      Source of the drawing
      The second is makeshift field modification found on Balkans. It appears Ustasha forces (and possibly some SS anti-partizan units) used several Italian M15/42 medium tanks with turrets from Pz.38(t). There are several photos of such hybrids but little more is known. On one photo it is possible to see Ustasha registration number U.O. 139.

      Few more photos of such hybrid.
      It appears that the source of all those photos to be found on the internet is this book, Armoured units of the Axis forces in southeastern Europe in WW2 by Dinko Predoevic. 
    • By Monochromelody
      The Al Khalid derived from Norinco Type 90IIM MBT. It was in the early 90s, when India started to test their Arjun MBT. Pakistanis looked for a MBT design that could be produced by herself. 
      Norinco provided their own Type 90IIM prototype, this is an MBT design which comprised many Western components, such as engine and transmission. 

      There were 4 prototypes for Al-Khalid development, namely P1, P2, P3 and P4. 
      P1 has a Chinese tank diesel engine with ZF LSG3000 transmission. 
      P2 has a British Perkins CV12 Condor diesel engine with French SESM ESM500 transmission. 
      P3 has a Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 2-cycle boxer engine with its own twin planetary gearbox. 
      P4 has a German MB871 engine with ZF LSG3000 transmission, similar to South Korean K1 MBT. 

      Norinco and Pakistanis planned to adopt one of the Western powerpack at first, but due to CoCom (Coordinating Committee for Export to Communist Countries) restrictions, China is under embargo, which means China would not import weapons form Western countries. Obviously P3 powerplant would be the only choice. All those descriptions on the internet about ESM500 in Al-Khalid is fatally wrong. 
      The Al-Khalid pre-production batch and production version all equipped with Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 powerpack.
      It is an extremely compact design, the engine laid transversely in engine room, twin planetary gearboxes connect to both left and right end. The 6TD-2 has two crankshafts: the front one drives the mechanical supercharger, while the rear one drives the gearboxes. The cooling system covering the whole engine room, the engine itself has no mechanical connection to the cooling system, and the cooling system doesn't need mechanical drive. The cooling system based on a unique principle: exhaust gas driven ejector. The exhaust gas from the engine is injected through the outlet ducting, produce a low pressure in the outlet side, that will suck in cold air from the inlet side. This principle is also used in the T-64, T-80UD and T-84, but as far as I know, Swedish Ikv 91 is the only western tank that have similar cooling principle. 
      As a result, the total length of powerpack is significantly shortened, much more shorter than the European powerpack mentioned above. This leads to a spare storage room between the fighting compartment and the engine compartment. This storage is for extra ammunition and fuel, when turret points 3 or 9 o'clock, the top cover of the storage could be opened from outside, containing 10 rounds for main gun, with projectiles on the outsides, semi-combustible charges on the inside.
      The data table from HIT also describe the ammunition capacity as 39+10, means that 22 ready rounds in the T-72 type carousel autoloader, 17 backup rounds scatter around the fighting compartment, and extra 10 rounds could be carried in the storage room. 
      The driver of Al-Khalid control the vehicle via steering wheel and an automatic gear control box. The steering wheel and gear control box send electrical signals to the computer, then computer control the hydraulic servo actuator to perform engage and disengage of brakes and clutches, making steering and gear changes, as well as adjusting the speed and torque of the engine.
      Mechanically the gearboxes are nearly the same as T-64s and T-72s, but have different side reducer unit. The KMDB side reducer unit is designed as a secondary gearbox, acting like a forward-reverse selector. When both reducers were put into reverse, the vehicle can reverse using the normal forward ranges. From 1st gear to 4th gear, all could be used as high speed reverse, and that's why KMDB said this is a 7F4R gearbox system. And if only one reducer was put into reverse, the track will be driving in opposites direction, causing the vehicle turns within its tracks, a.k.a. pivot steer or center steer. T-84 also applied this driving and steering system.  
      The advantages of Al-Khalid's powerpack is the versatility: all 3 types of MBT in the Pakistanis arsenal, T-80UD, T-84, Al-Khalid, share the same engine and gearbox. 
    • By Gripen287
      Do you like pontificating on the infantryman's load? Want to see how different gear choices affect said load?  If so, check out this spreadsheet including an itemized list of "best of breed" (IMHO) gear! Download it and customize to suit your own preferred equipment.  The "Configured Totals" section should auto-calculate weights and ammunition totals for your selected items, and you can copy and paste "Configured Totals" values into the light and heavy load sections for comparison. 
      I've tried to provide a fairly comprehensive list of gear for the rifle squad and machine gun teams.  A few items are notional, and those should be noted as such. I've also tried to balance both lightness and capability.  I, however, mostly intend this spreadsheet to serve as an outline and handy way to calculate total values for any items you choose to add or change.
      While I'm sure there are a more than a few errors, this spreadsheet is merely intended as a starting point for your own explorations, and I am NOT likely to maintain this particular version. Enjoy!
      Infantry Packlist Spreadsheet
    • By phasers on stun
      Fellow fish - imagine you had some money to develop the "next generation" 20-40mm" modular architecture turret.  Of course, you could talk about sensor fusion, using AI to detect threats, better / more integrated sensors... targetting linked to drones etc... But is this the way forwards. ?
      What is the SOTA 30mm turret on the market ? - more importantly, what are it's attributes ?? [ no need to name the manufacturer unless you want to] 
      Built in APS ?
      intelligent Armour ?
      Reconfigurability ?
      Self Repair ?
      We all have ideas... what would you see as a truly game changing set of characteristics ?  
      I think the T2000 looks interesting and there are some nice turrets from lower profile companies (as seen at AUSA).  
      Alternatively, we might be at the end of the roadmap - "gun + armour + sight is good enough"
  • Create New...