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1 hour ago, Gun Ready said:

That confirms my assumption! Although the Polish made ammo is cheaper than the German one the barrel life goes down which at the end costs also money. But that depends on the training rounds fired.

BTW the chart of Polish Armed Forces is very interesting, too. How many tanks are in one armoured cavalry brigade? So, how many guns will be ready to defend 🇵🇱 in 2026?

 

1) Well acually it's twice more expensive :/  Yes, it have no sense. More or less it's hidden pay of for polish industry to hold them mobilisation line on duty. And for multiple resons polish old 120mm trening amo is shit. And it's danger for crews and it's ussaly brokent the L-44 and it fume exaxctor. Long and sad stroy how militray industry and political conection are mor important then soliders life. In 2015 there wher acident whit this amo when tank loader was KIA due this shitty ammo.

 

2)In Armoured Cavalery Bde we have 116 tanks in mechanizated brigade - 58 tanks

More or less polish armed forces have:

148 Leopard 2A4 upgraded to 2PL

105 Leopard 2A5 upgraded now to 2A5 "nameless designation"

232 PT-91 Twardy upgraded now whit new thermal cameras

318 T-72M1 will be upgreade since this summer whit new radio, thermal camera, and other minor changes

all:

803 tanks while Leo 2A5 and PT-91 are mostly after factory rebuild, 2PL is slowly doing (end in 2022-23) and all T-72M1  will have small modernisation up to 2024.

 

Polish army now is considering buy 150 M1A1SA or Leopard 2A6 couse two europeean countries will sell 2A6 and buy new 2A7V from Germany and polish MoD is considering buy this second-hand 2A6.  More or less PA want to buy tanks for one armoured cav bde (116 + reserve + trening) so circa 150 tanks as "short term solution" waiting for 2020-2030 and present on market new generation tanks.

Of course feirytails about polish next generation tank is bullshit. 

 

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15 hours ago, Militarysta said:

Polish army now is considering buy 150 M1A1SA or Leopard 2A6

M1A1??? Ohh, Damian's dream would come true! :D

But seriously. It would be a stupid decision. Poland already uses two types of tank, a third would be idiotic. We saw that somewhere before :D 

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Well, the plan could be to have large numbers of MBT in the garage to threaten Russia.

To operate such a fleet you need MBTs, IFVs, ARVs, AEVs and AVBLs and other support vehicles.

So far I don't see that for any type of the Polish MBT in a significant way so it doesn't matter if there comes a third type ;-).

Or lets say there are some open challenges.

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5 hours ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

Who's selling?

That is a good question! Leo2A6, which is a Leo2A5 with L55 barrel instead of L44 is only available at German, Spanish, Greek, Quatari, (no more in Dutch), Canadian, Finnish and Portuguese Armies. The only which may have to many tanks are the Spanish and the Greek.

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11 hours ago, heretic88 said:

M1A1??? Ohh, Damian's dream would come true! :D

But seriously. It would be a stupid decision. Poland already uses two types of tank, a third would be idiotic. We saw that somewhere before :D 

 

Wait patiently. There's a lot of gossips about M1 since 2015 and none has come true so far.

 

Also militarysta has talked the same about Borsuk IFV as he's talking now about new MBT. Now his mind about Borsuk is radically changed. Nevertheless his...

 

The main problem with new MBT is that a lot of people want that tank in less than 5 years and that tank will be the death star. In case of longer R&D process there's a risk that the concept won't survive because the truth is if Pole is the richer and more impactful the more egoistic and vainer he becomes.

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While I take the M1A1SA rumor with approximately 500t of salt, if they do get a good price on those and sufficient volume is available... does this not rather take the wind out of the Leo2PL program? It's hard to see how the 2PL would be a better machine overall due to the limited scope of the upgrades on it, and unless the 2PL is *suuuuper* cheap wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money on SAs and just consign the ancient 2A4s to training & parts hulk duties?

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10 minutes ago, TokyoMorose said:

While I take the M1A1SA rumor with approximately 500t of salt, if they do get a good price on those and sufficient volume is available... does this not rather take the wind out of the Leo2PL program? It's hard to see how the 2PL would be a better machine overall due to the limited scope of the upgrades on it, and unless the 2PL is *suuuuper* cheap wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money on SAs and just consign the ancient 2A4s to training & parts hulk duties?

I think they need to get rid of the PT-91 and T-72M1s before reserving any of their Leopards.

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6 minutes ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

I think they need to get rid of the PT-91 and T-72M1s before reserving any of their Leopards.

 

Oh I agree wholeheartedly. But my question was that since the Leo2PL project is funded separately from the T-72 replacement: If it is cheap enough and there are enough available at the cheap price, it might be worth diverting the 2PL funds to replace the 2A4s *as well* as the old T-series tanks.

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12 hours ago, Ramlaen said:

As amusing as it would be, replacing their Leopard 2A4 with Abrams would not be a good use of limited defense funds.

Especially if you think about the thirsty turbine. Then they have to ask the Russians to supply them cheap kerosene before riding against the East. Ha, ha!

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5 hours ago, Gun Ready said:

Especially if you think about the thirsty turbine. Then they have to ask the Russians to supply them cheap kerosene before riding against the East. Ha, ha!

Not just the fuel. Spare parts too. Actually, it would be even worse than what the soviets did with using T-64/72/80 parallel. At least those tanks had some common parts. T-72/PT-91, Leopard-2, and Abrams have zero commonality.

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On 6/27/2019 at 1:46 PM, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

Who's selling?

Two countries, it's from Leoben info so I don't want to precise it public. Sorry, not yet.

More or les two 2A6 users "discover" that in LCC  is better idea to buy new 2A7V+ then upgrade old Leos. IMHO it's possbible that 2A7V+ have some major armour changes and it's not possible to upgrade old hull and turret structure to this level - I have no evidence, it's just my thought.

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On 6/27/2019 at 11:56 PM, Zadlo said:

 

Wait patiently. There's a lot of gossips about M1 since 2015 and none has come true so far.

 

Also militarysta has talked the same about Borsuk IFV as he's talking now about new MBT. Now his mind about Borsuk is radically changed. Nevertheless his...

 

The main problem with new MBT is that a lot of people want that tank in less than 5 years and that tank will be the death star. In case of longer R&D process there's a risk that the concept won't survive because the truth is if Pole is the richer and more impactful the more egoistic and vainer he becomes.

 

C'mon Peter, it's well known that part of our MoD and IU (weapons offcie) love US so mucht that ALL major deals are made without public tender and whithout real offset - just junky scraps for PR. Patriot, S70i, HIMAARS atc - all without any sense in LCC aspect and as part of bigger system. The only idea in HQ of the  MoD is to make blow job for one big company from USA just for another meet Trumph wit our president :/  All deals are pure PR before next parlament election (this autumn) and president elections. Noone cares about "system" mobilisation proces etc. Thats the point, and very sad couse shown poblic how in military aspect we are third world country. 

So yes, those idiots almout forced Javelin in Polish Army (thanks God stopped after trials in Poland), now they are forced Hellfire on K9 chassis as "tank destroyer" (WTF!), and yes - since 2016 there is serious fight to not buy M1A1SA  couse nobody from armoured forces wants third type od MBTs...

 

And yes, again - polish MBTs is fairy tails. Firstly - end Borsuk IFV then think about something mucht complicated and expensive

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2 hours ago, heretic88 said:

Not just the fuel. Spare parts too. Actually, it would be even worse than what the soviets did with using T-64/72/80 parallel. At least those tanks had some common parts. T-72/PT-91, Leopard-2, and Abrams have zero commonality.

 

It's even more complicated. Upgrade of polish 2A4 and 2A5 is forced by lack of spare parts in Leoben stocks. That's the true reson of forced 2PL program and now "quiet" mod our 2A5.

In case PT-91/T-72M1 is simmilar problem.

Look: it's detailed description which main components of the T-72M1 where produced during WarPac times:

 

Turret:

 

HB04RO4.jpg

 

 

Hull:

XFFWbHa.jpg

 

 

 

PRL = Poland

CSRS = Chechoslovakia (now Chech Republic and Slovakia) 

NRD = DDR

ZSRR = CCCP (Soviet Union)

WRL = Hungarian Poples Respublic

"zespoły produkcji niezależnej" - "free production parts (open on market?)"

 

 

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Interesting, apparently those two diagrams also give a cost in roubles for different tank components, something barely available for any Cold War Soviet tank even to this day.

...btw, adding those numbers, it seems like entire tank's cost was 600,000 roubles.
I don't see any indication on what year it was, but in any case it's quite a big number. It is known (from UVZ's books) that Soviet prices for T-72/T-72A produced at UVZ plant in 1976-1985 were between 150-175 thousand roubles per tank. Even crazy expensive T-80U was around 800 thousand.

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It was in transfer roubles so "diffrent" ones then internal SU rubles.

Transfer roubles had stick course in ratio to USD an gold...

So yes it was crazy expensive...

 

@Tarasenko

http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1752&p=26

" не может такого быть, дорого. "

But it was - the best price for best WarPac union :D

Those system feld down for sevral resons - mostly economic - and it was typical "price" for "alliace" in WarPac - more expensive then for Soviet Army. The same was about license for T-72s in end of the 80s. Overpriced triple - so Polish People Army had started to developed "Wolf" program so nex PT-91 "Twardy". It was polish respons for overpraced proposal to build T-72s in Poland. To expensive for non existing FCS xD So thanks to Saddam money based on stolen Cheftian Mk.5 FCS polish Industry had developed two it's own FCS - for T-55AM Merida and for PT-91. Of coure all was from Saddam money between 1987-1991.

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Very cool video from polish museum - historycial reconstruction ZAPAD'88

 

oh wait...it's our typical air defense :/

 

Anyway - worth to see - brilant military video!

 

ps.can enyone tell me is this video visible here?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Militarysta said:
Spoiler

 

Very cool video from polish museum - historycial reconstruction ZAPAD'88

 

oh wait...it's our typical air defense :/

 

Anyway - worth to see - brilant military video!

 

 

ps.can enyone tell me is this video visible here?

 

   I can see it, no problems. Not sure about rest of forum users.

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Remeber the "Afgan" Rosomak-1M?

 

29541844_357476391421685_736279538822526

 

It has composite armour from MIKANIT factory - able to stop 14,5mm and...PG-7.

Now more details:

KZxBIlH.jpg

 

 

OD5kfIp.jpg

 

 

resistant to PG-7 and 14,5mm whit mass 200 kg/m2

 

rest in pdf avaible to find in net: "Stalowo-kompozytowe panele do ochrony przed
przebiciem pociskami kumulacyjnymi z zastosowaniem
blach z nanokrystalicznej stali bainityczno-austenitycznej"

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Yes, it's beyond normal level of stupidy...

 

Polish army start program "Otokar-Brzezina" (named as famous general) for rocket tracked tank destroyer.

And pretend will be:

1) Hellfire luncher (DAGR or this from Stryker MSL) on K9 chassis (so polish Krab SPG chassis)

2) BMP-1 (lol) chassis whit Brigstone lunher

3) something whit Spike LR luncher.

...

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2 hours ago, Militarysta said:

Yes, it's beyond normal level of stupidy...

 

Polish army start program "Otokar-Brzezina" (named as famous general) for rocket tracked tank destroyer.

And pretend will be:

1) Hellfire luncher (DAGR or this from Stryker MSL) on K9 chassis (so polish Krab SPG chassis)

2) BMP-1 (lol) chassis whit Brigstone lunher

3) something whit Spike LR luncher.

...

 

Any reason that the Borsuk IFV wasn't considered for this role? Having the tank destroyer and IFV on the same basic platform seems like the best idea.

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3 minutes ago, Clan_Ghost_Bear said:

 

Any reason that the Borsuk IFV wasn't considered for this role? Having the tank destroyer and IFV on the same basic platform seems like the best idea.

In Soviet states (and affiliated), best platform is many platforms.

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