The Small Arms Thread, Part 8: 2018; ICSR to be replaced by US Army with interim 15mm Revolver Cannon.

[Meplat]

On 2/13/2017 at 5:26 AM, LoooSeR said:

And a sight setup that assures you of ' never, ever shooting too high. In fact, your enemies will come to feel concern for the safety of their ankles. For you will be "Enfield, the Ankle Smasher" '...

[Donward]

14 minutes ago, Meplat said:

And a sight setup that assures you of ' never, ever shooting too high. In fact, your enemies will come to feel concern for the safety of their ankles. For you will be "Enfield, the Ankle Smasher" '...

Clearly this rifle has been optimized for shooting down from mountaintops into the FOBs of poodle-dog shooter armed Americans, 10,000 feet below.

[LoooSeR]

Ukraine, stop

 

[Meplat]

20 hours ago, Donward said:

Clearly this rifle has been optimized for shooting down from mountaintops into the FOBs of poodle-dog shooter armed Americans, 10,000 feet below.

Which, given even the admittedly excellent ballistics of the 7,62X54R, is highly unlikely. Even with the rapidly changing and always idiotic ROE's shackling U.S troops.

 

Things like "No Sergeant, you cannot order an "Arc Light" strike on a single hill, even if you saw Bin Laden fornicating a nuke intermixed with wiping his penis on the queen of England", or  "I do not care Corporal if that man is killing your troopies, do not shoot the goat he is using as cover".

[Sturgeon]

2 minutes ago, Meplat said:

excellent ballistics of the 7,62X54R

wat

[Meplat]

15 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

wat

Thousands of U.S. shooters post WW1~post WW2 might differ in your opinion.

If I come across it, I'll post a mostly text "American RIfleman" article from the 1920's on sporterizing the M91 into a decent deer and target rifle.

 

As a cartridge, it's pretty damned good, the "primitive" flange notwithstanding.  Headspace is based on the flange, not the "datum", so it will be far more constant. Case volume is large, and bore diameter is large enough to allow a decently massed projectile with decent sectional density.

 

Also- " I can prime it with a bunch of ground up match-heads,  load it with FFF black and stuff a 180 grain RNL projo on it. til heat-death of the universe, and never overstress the case or any action it might see.".

 

Only the .303" commands more love.  Simply because I own more Enfields. And Rosses. And maybe a BREN , for a time.

[Sturgeon]

2 hours ago, Meplat said:

Thousands of U.S. shooters post WW1~post WW2 might differ in your opinion.

If I come across it, I'll post a mostly text "American RIfleman" article from the 1920's on sporterizing the M91 into a decent deer and target rifle.

 

As a cartridge, it's pretty damned good, the "primitive" flange notwithstanding.  Headspace is based on the flange, not the "datum", so it will be far more constant. Case volume is large, and bore diameter is large enough to allow a decently massed projectile with decent sectional density.

 

Also- " I can prime it with a bunch of ground up match-heads,  load it with FFF black and stuff a 180 grain RNL projo on it. til heat-death of the universe, and never overstress the case or any action it might see.".

 

Only the .303" commands more love.  Simply because I own more Enfields. And Rosses. And maybe a BREN , for a time.

Ooooh, ooooooh, Meplat and I get to have a fight, finally!

OK, so I cover the 7.62x54mmR in decent detail here:

Quote

It’s obvious how cluttered the graphs are – this is an indication that we’re talking about some very similar ballistics between the two rounds. In fact, with similar bullet weights, the ballistic performance of the 7.62x54mmR and 7.62 NATO is virtually indistinguishable. With lighter projectiles, the 7.62mm NATO tends to have higher muzzle velocities and better performance, but the gap closes almost completely when both are loaded with heavier projectiles. However, there are some important differences beyond that: First, the 7.62x54mmR comes loaded with a few different ammunition types that the 7.62 NATO lacks, for example the excellent B-32 Armor Piercing Incendiary round. Second, the Russian caliber features steel bullet jackets which can improve the long-range penetration of the round versus the gilding-metal-jacketed 7.62 NATO, especially if a heavy load like the antique 183gr D Ball is used. This means, in theory, that the 7.62x54mmR is perhaps the better machine gun round, while the 7.62 NATO is, thanks to its shorter overall length and rimless case, the superior magazine-fed rifle round.

So the performance we see from 7.62x54R in military guise ranges from the L Ball type round (concave base, lead-cored, 148gr) which has pretty underwhelming performance being ~150 ft/s slower than 7.62 NATO and shedding velocity more quickly, to the D Ball type rounds (boattailed, lead-cored, 183gr) which although slower than M118LR or Mk. 316, retains energy slighter better than the 175s at 1,000m due to its weight.

The real standouts for me are the API rounds. They have great energy retention (almost as good as the 175 7.62 NATO stuff) and their bullet design is great for poking holes in stuff and igniting fuel. Besides that, though, military 7.62x54R is basically inferior to 7.62 NATO.

Now. You can handload it. And handloaded 7.62x54R is a pretty glorious thing, being the equal in every way to .30-06, while having a squatter combustion chamber that allows more consistent ignition. The round persisted for a very long time in competition circles in Russia and Finland, and in several cases was supplanted by variants of itself, like the 6.5x54R. So from the perspective of a handloader, it's not a bad round at all.

From a military perspective? It's "meh". Not terribly impressive compared to 7.62 NATO, which itself is one of the least impressive .30 cal rounds out there. Unless the Pashtuns got their hands on some API or D-Ball, that is.
 

[Meplat]

9 minutes ago, Sturgeon said:

Ooooh, ooooooh, Meplat and I get to have a fight, finally!

OK, so I cover the 7.62x54mmR in decent detail here:

So the performance we see from 7.62x54R in military guise ranges from the L Ball type round (concave base, lead-cored, 148gr) which has pretty underwhelming performance being ~150 ft/s slower than 7.62 NATO and shedding velocity more quickly, to the D Ball type rounds (boattailed, lead-cored, 183gr) which although slower than M118LR or Mk. 316, retains energy slighter better than the 175s at 1,000m due to its weight.

The real standouts for me are the API rounds. They have great energy retention (almost as good as the 175 7.62 NATO stuff) and their bullet design is great for poking holes in stuff and igniting fuel. Besides that, though, military 7.62x54R is basically inferior to 7.62 NATO.

Now. You can handload it. And handloaded 7.62x54R is a pretty glorious thing, being the equal in every way to .30-06, while having a squatter combustion chamber that allows more consistent ignition. The round persisted for a very long time in competition circles in Russia and Finland, and in several cases was supplanted by variants of itself, like the 6.5x54R. So from the perspective of a handloader, it's not a bad round at all.

From a military perspective? It's "meh". Not terribly impressive compared to 7.62 NATO, which itself is one of the least impressive .30 cal rounds out there. Unless the Pashtuns got their hands on some API or D-Ball, that is.
 

Save we are looking at it from radically different perspectives, maybe.. It's not a "fight" when  we are talking about different parameters of the same cartridge

It's FUNCTIONAL.  As I mentioned already the flange makes it easy to headspace. the chosen diameter is on a par with common nominal .312"~.310~.308" projectiles, and it's of suficient case volume to make priming a minor issue. Really, it's a well designed case for it's era.

One can (with slugging) determine what size works in one's bore, and hence achieve excellent accuracy from said cartridge.  In my case the sluggd bore was ".3107", meaning I used .312" projos with gas checks and was pleased with the results.

 

Now, from a military standpoint?

 

Hmm. It's flanged. Which to most means "oh dear it's primitive.". To me it sings "MAXIM TIME!". Yes, this old bitch is just pleased as punch to be run through a maxim at absurd rates.  That a MG action designed before the turn (of the last) century will merrily eat this old bitch out like a tweaked linebacker on his final homecomiing binge is simple amazing. And then we come to the PK.

Yes, the PK/PKM.

For those that are annoyed at the concept of the flanged case being "obsolete", the PK is our home.

A masterwork that bashes a flanged case into a belt fed GPMG, making a FN-MAG look like a sack ill contrived excreta, and the M-60 look like the scribblings of a waterhead-mongoloid motherfucker, and proving that "It WILL WORK" with enough vodka, and Kalashnikov. 

And, it's a piece that I have fired innumerable round from. And it is GLORIOUS.

 

Any "modern" GPMG that can be fed with ammo and belts that are a century old (other than a Browning) and do it reliably and controllably is a winner in my wee book. You want proof? Run a shitpot of surplus 7.62X54 from a pre WW1 Maxim belt through a PKM.   It WILL eat it, and you will smile, lest you are bereft of a soul.(and hence an agent of unfun, and thus in need of cleansing by fire and/or a hot bath and fels-naptha bar soap).

 

 

All aside, the piggy old 7,62 "russian" is a damned good cartridge simply because it works.  In the same way the .30-30, and the .30-06 became famous.

It's one of those cartridges that is a bit diluted by military mediocrity, but that is not a reason to slight it's potential for accuracy in the hands of a dedicated marksman.

 

Okay, time for more vodka.

 

[Sturgeon]

Just now, Meplat said:

Save we are looking at it from radically different perspectives, maybe.. It's not a "fight" when  we are talking about different parameters of the same cartridge

It's FUNCTIONAL.  As I mentioned already the flange makes it easy to headspace. the chosen diameter is on a par with common nominal .312"~.310~.308" projectiles, and it's of suficient case volume to make priming a minor issue. Really, it's a well designed case for it's era.

One can (with slugging) determine what size works in one's bore, and hence achieve excellent accuracy from said cartridge.  In my case the sluggd bore was ".3107", meaning I used .312" projos with gas checks and was pleased with the results.

 

Not gonna argue with you there. There's a reason militaries were hesistant to leave rimmed rounds behind. They work very well.

7.62x54R's case aspect ratio is also favorable for ignition consistency, as I mentioned before.

5 minutes ago, Meplat said:

Now, from a military standpoint?

Which I assumed is what you meant, based on this statement:

2 hours ago, Meplat said:

Thousands of U.S. shooters post WW1~post WW2 might differ in your opinion.

Although, actually, on my second read that is not what you were saying at all.

7 minutes ago, Meplat said:

Hmm. It's flanged. Which to most means "oh dear it's primitive.". To me it sings "MAXIM TIME!". Yes, this old bitch is just pleased as punch to be run through a maxim at absurd rates.  That a MG action designed before the turn (of the last) century will merrily eat this old bitch out like a tweaked linebacker on his final homecomiing binge is simple amazing. And then we come to the PK.

Yes, the PK/PKM.

For those that are annoyed at the concept of the flanged case being "obsolete", the PK is our home.

A masterwork that bashes a flanged case into a belt fed GPMG, making a FN-MAG look like a sack ill contrived excreta, and the M-60 look like the scribblings of a waterhead-mongoloid motherfucker, and proving that "It WILL WORK" with enough vodka, and Kalashnikov. 

And, it's a piece that I have fired innumerable round from. And it is GLORIOUS.

 

Any "modern" GPMG that can be fed with ammo and belts that are a century old (other than a Browning) and do it reliably and controllably is a winner in my wee book. You want proof? Run a shitpot of surplus 7.62X54 from a pre WW1 Maxim belt through a PKM.   It WILL eat it, and you will smile, lest you are bereft of a soul.(and hence an agent of unfun, and thus in need of cleansing by fire and/or a hot bath and fels-naptha bar soap).

I find it very funny that the PK wouldn't meet all the Western requirements for a GPMG. Which, given how obviously superior it is to any Western GPMG in so many respects, makes you wonder if the West really has its MG requirements straight.

The PK is a fantastic design that really deserves more credit. It's a gun designed to be the ultimate belt fed general purpose MG, and to do so while eating (at the time) 60 year old gun food.

Oh, and it has a really great trigger:

You could argue that the M60E6 is a better assault gun (perhaps it is), or that the MAG is a better emplaced gun (perhaps it is), but both of those were designed as GENERAL PURPOSE machine guns and both failed at that job in a way that the PKM gloriously succeeded.

11 minutes ago, Meplat said:

All aside, the piggy old 7,62 "russian" is a damned good cartridge simply because it works.  In the same way the .30-30, and the .30-06 became famous.

It's one of those cartridges that is a bit diluted by military mediocrity, but that is not a reason to slight it's potential for accuracy in the hands of a dedicated marksman.

 

Okay, time for more vodka.

I agree. The Russians have continued to make the right decision by sticking with the 7.62x54R instead of trying to invent something new that does the same job. The US didn't, and ended up with 7.62 NATO which was a waste of time and money, and which didn't even end up with an API round.

.30-06 was fine, we should have stuck with it. Then at least we'd be able to break out the M14A1 API rounds whenever something needed a hole poked in it and lit on fire. People keep trying to reinvent the wheel when the wheel was invented in the 1890s.

Or, you know, we could have adopted the 7.5 French in the late forties as the NATO round. Maybe then the French wouldn't have boogied later on.

[Meplat]

So, all in all we drink vodka, and handload 7.5 MAS.. 

Sounds like a plan.

[Sturgeon]

Dammit! That argument didn't last long!

Me being hard on the 7.62x54R comes from having spent so much time down in the military reformer slums, where they pretend like it's the equal of fucking .338 Lapua or something.

Although I find it hilarious that Tony and his ilk don't see the utility of a round like this:

[Ramlaen]

I would be interested the bullet used in M80A1 rounds with .30-06 cartridges.

 

[Sturgeon]

It would penetrate even harderer?

[Ramlaen]

Trying to penetrate level IV ceramic armor would be a good test.

[Sturgeon]

It wouldn't penetrate.

[Ramlaen]

Sure, but seeing what you could get out of it is the fun part.

[LoooSeR]

Earlier i reposted some pics of moded SVDs from russian edition of Populat Mechanics, here is forum discussion with creator:

http://forum.guns.ru/forum_light_message/2/1723231.html

[roguetechie]

IAnyone whose talked about guns with me very much at all knows I have a total obsession with the designs of Russell S. Robinson,  the Beardmore Farquhar machine guns, the XM235/248, the dover devil aka AAI LWGPHMG, the IMP 221/arm gun family, colt Scamp, and M231 port firing weapon / short or no buffer DI AR's.

I have a pretty extensive information collection on all of these, but am always looking for more (especially dimensioned parts drawings and etc! I've actually got several design and build projects ongoing that incorporate elements from one or more of the guns listed above.)

If you guys want I'll start uploading info from my stash for you guys, if you want you can PM or post requests in this topic and I'll put stuff up.

If you guys have information on any of these systems I'd really appreciate anything you can or will share!

Things I'm specifically looking for: 

1. M231 striker part drawing

2. M231 buffer tube, end cap, elastomeric bumper, nested buffer springs (all 3), handguard, and the qd firing port interface that is pinned over the gas block parts drawings, material call outs, and most especially data on the springs / striker!

(Like everyone else and their dog I'm working on several AR15 "improvements" including  closed bolt striker fired AR mod... I personally believe that DI operating systems of one sort or another for the individual infantry weapon are the best option for western military rifles due to weight, parts count, manufacturing costs, and other factors,!)

3. Interdynamics MKR drawing missing from the mkr PDF in Sturgeon's upload folder.

4. Imp and scamp dimensioned parts drawings etc.

5. XM235/248 AAI LWGPHMG documentation of ALL sorts especially dimensioned parts drawings and if anyone has even a partial dover devil technical manual... I will murder a bus full of nuns for it! (Not really, of course... The nuns are safe please don't call homeland security)

Shirt really anything and everything I can get even tangentially related to stuff on that list is very much of interest to me, so let me know if you find anything please!

Things I have: 

1. PDF file of both articles from fighting firearms magazine covering Robinson FOOB guns, M73, model 11 pdw etc

2. Supplemental pictures including disassembled Robinson machine gun pics etc. Also a few hit and miss Robinson patents, Colt 1971 double stack combat pistol information packet including the Salvo Squeeze Bore version Robinson developed for it. Colt lightning information packet. Colt EPAM 100+ page proposal documentation. Colt Imp proposal documentation and other small PDF packs about it. Colt 703 high resolution images and basic info.

3. English and German Oerlikon big book

4. I think I have the rheinmetal book too

P.S: anyone who wants MIT multifab information... I have pretty much everything you would need to do a full replication and am a good portion of the way can to most of the software too.

The multifab is the 3d printer MIT CSAIL built that blows away printers under $250,000 msrp out of $7000 worth of COTS parts. Can even do metamaterials and other really advanced functionality...

Really I have a pretty massive treasure trove worth of information sufficient to build Dexter's laboratory piece by piece from scrap metal and occasionally ordered shit from digikey. 

 

Just ask if you want something

[roguetechie]

Looser,

I still like the SVU-AS much better... Starting to think I'm the only one to live it lol.

[LoooSeR]

[LoooSeR]

Russian SFs (SSO) with pump action shotgun? WTF, where is our Veprs and Saigas?

[Collimatrix]

Might be for firing crowd-control rounds or some other specialized ammunition.  Really weird ammo often does not cycle in semiautomatics.

[Oedipus Wreckx-n-Effect]

No no, the sword is for crowd control.

[Meplat]

On 2/18/2017 at 0:18 PM, roguetechie said:

Things I'm specifically looking for: 

1. M231 striker part drawing

2. M231 buffer tube, end cap, elastomeric bumper, nested buffer springs (all 3), handguard, and the qd firing port interface that is pinned over the gas block parts drawings, material call outs, and most especially data on the springs / striker!

(Like everyone else and their dog I'm working on several AR15 "improvements" including  closed bolt striker fired AR mod... I personally believe that DI operating systems of one sort or another for the individual infantry weapon are the best option for western military rifles due to weight, parts count, manufacturing costs, and other factors,!)

 

M231 biytsa are not (or rather 'were not") uncommon, for a time I had a couple '231 parts "kits"..

 

IIRC the "Black RIfle" series had some stuff on the '231. All in all once I shot one, my interest in building one waned quickly.

[roguetechie]

tMy interest with the 231 lies somewhere besides Tommy Boy And Doctor Frankenstein....

Given access to a parts kit... I'd love it stroke it pet it AND RIP IT'S FUCKING INSIDES OUT!!!

After the ritual gutting there would be a bunch of digitizing, measuring, weighing, and etc to thoroughly document the cadaver. 

The parts kit or tolerances TDP parts drawings, materials call outs, and stuff like spring specs are a means to an ends not an ends unto itself.

You could say I have several separate projects which would benefit from this, and over the years of constructing some truly epic inbred ugly mutant DIY WECSOG garage guns one lesson that I HAVE finally learned is that it's basically ALWAYS worth it to acquire reference parts samples drawings yadda yadda of an already working project even if only tangentially related to the project you're working towards!

Like most garage inventors and fabricators I believe that I have seen the ONE TRUE WAY FORWARD... (Yes I'm aware this makes me a genius, a fool, or an inbred cousin fucker cum gunsmite named Bubba)

I will say though, that fool and inbred cousin fucker gunsmite named Bubba are pretty damn unlikely at this point even if you only consider how much Tony and the Gerpesher crew love to fucking hate and contradict me...

I think even our dear leader, sturgeon, will be nothing short of shocked to see what I bring into the light once it's ready...

Just to whet your appetites though the first round of things I'm likely to take public have the following names and acronyms

Autopod IWM: IWM= Individual weapon mechanical

Autopod IWE: individual weapon electronic

Autopod CSM: Crew served mechanical

Autopod CSE: ... Electronic

Iw/csw HOTAS ... 

There's also a hunter killer development spiral.

Sorta one of the reasons I thank God for being self educated and spending my young life too broke to just go out and buy brand new machine tools.