politics Post Election Thread: Democracy Dies In Darkness And You Can Help

[Ramlaen]

I thought Obama in 2009 had a significantly larger turnout. Not that it matters.

 

I am sure that Obama did have a larger turnout, it was a historic first after all. But like you said, it doesn't matter (except to those who need a final sour grapes).

[EnsignExpendable]

This is also a historic occasion, America's first orange president.

[Belesarius]

This is also a historic occasion, America's first orange president.

There's a Meme for that.

 

[Donward]

There's a Meme for that.

 

Now that is awesome.

[Donward]

From one of the marches last night in Seattle.

 

 

Wait... Have the Russians hacked the anti-Trump protests?

 

I thought the Russkies were BAD! 

[Walter_Sobchak]

I think saying the protesters are "unhappy with democracy" or simply motivated by sour grapes is incorrect. I am sure a good many of them are unhappy with a system that gives elections to the candidate with fewer votes. Mostly though, I think they are motivated by fear. Fear that this administration will pursue policies that run counter to their own interests.

[Ramlaen]

I think saying the protesters are "unhappy with democracy" or simply motivated by sour grapes is incorrect. I am sure a good many of them are unhappy with a system that gives elections to the candidate with fewer votes. Mostly though, I think they are motivated by fear. Fear that this administration will pursue policies that run counter to their own interests.

 

They should be happy we have a system that doesn't allow the popular vote in California to decide national elections.

 

As for being motivated by fear, the behavior I see here in the northwest is fueled by propaganda and safe space culture.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Ramlaen

[Priory_of_Sion]

I'm not happy that Floridians basically get to pick the president

[Walter_Sobchak]

Your argument makes no sense. How would awarding the presidency based on the popular vote allow California to control elections? One person, one vote. It's really quite simple. All votes should count the same regardless of which state a person lives in.

[Ramlaen]

I'm not happy that Floridians basically get to pick the president

 

I distinctly remember on election day the media playing up how Trump would be done when Hillary won Florida, and then dragging out calling it for Trump as long as possible. Even after there were not enough votes left for Hillary to retake the lead.

[Legiondude]

I am sure that Obama did have a larger turnout, it was a historic first after all. But like you said, it doesn't matter (except to those who need a final sour grapes).

I was looking at a chart yesterday for Inauguration turnout and his first one was listed as having something like 1.8 million people in attendance, a peak probably of all time since the thing measured back to FDR, IIRC

 

EDIT - There may have been another factor in the measurements I'm not remembering clearly enough

[Donward]

Again, Hillary lost Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and Florida because she (and Obama) pissed off enough Cuban and Haitian voters.

[Priory_of_Sion]

I distinctly remember on election day the media playing up how Trump would be done when Hillary won Florida, and then dragging out calling it for Trump as long as possible. Even after there were not enough votes left for Hillary to retake the lead.

Yeah that was pretty pathetic on their reporting. Still if we're going to have an EC system, the dumbies in Florida are likely going to decide the election which is just as bad as having Californians decide it in a popular vote. 

[Ramlaen]

Your argument makes no sense. How would awarding the presidency based on the popular vote allow California to control elections?

 

California's sheer population.

 

Hillary won the popular vote by ~3 million votes, Hillary won the popular vote in California by over 4 million votes (that is more than the entire population of my state).

 

 

One person, one vote. It's really quite simple. All votes should count the same regardless of which state a person lives in.

 

The diminishing returns system we have is more fair than a direct democracy would ever be in such a large country with wildly divergent population densities.

[Donward]

Again. It's not like America's Electoral College system is some huge surprise no one has heard of.

If Democrats want their votes to count more then they should stop moving to Seattle and Portland and New York and San Francisco and move back to swing states.

[Walter_Sobchak]

Again, why should a citizen who lives in California have their vote count less than someone in a swing State? The electoral college basically gerrymanders away the voice of Republican voters in California and democratic voters in Texas.

[Walter_Sobchak]

The issue is not that I should have to move someplace to make my vote to "count more." A vote should be the same regardless of where someone resides. One person, one vote. It's how we elect mayors, governors, congressmen, senators, etc. In fact president is the only office not elected by popular vote.

[Meplat]

The issue is not that I should have to move someplace to make my vote to "count more." A vote should be the same regardless of where someone resides. One person, one vote. It's how we elect mayors, governors, congressmen, senators, etc. In fact president is the only office not elected by popular vote.

 

There is a reason for that presidential vote being different. 

Mayors, governors, senators and congressmen are the representatives of,  or employed within their locale.

 

The president is a representative of the nation and it's people as a whole. 

The electoral college exists for a number of very valid reasons.

[Priory_of_Sion]

There is a reason for that presidential vote being different. 

Mayors, governors, senators and congressmen are the representatives of,  or employed within their locale.

 

The president is a representative of the nation and it's people as a whole. 

The electoral college exists for a number of very valid reasons.

Wouldn't the entirety of the US be considered just a large locale?

[Meplat]

Wouldn't the entirety of the US be considered just a large locale?

No.

Not at all, in fact.  It's not hard to travel "short" distances (given that many U.S. states are larger than many European countries) and find radical and conflicting differences..

[Priory_of_Sion]

No.

Not at all, in fact.  It's not hard to travel "short" distances (given that many U.S. states are larger than many European countries) and find radical and conflicting differences..

Yeah, and that can be applied to most states so why aren't EC type systems used at the state level? The arbitrary distinction doesn't make sense. 

[Meplat]

Yeah, and that can be applied to most states so why aren't EC type systems used at the state level? The arbitrary distinction doesn't make sense. 

In a way it is, via election districts and how they are organized or manipulated (gerrymandering).

[Priory_of_Sion]

In a way it is, via election districts and how they are organized or manipulated (gerrymandering).

Governors aren't elected this way 

[Ramlaen]

Again, why should a citizen who lives in California have their vote count less than someone in a swing State? The electoral college basically gerrymanders away the voice of Republican voters in California and democratic voters in Texas.

 

I don't mind my vote for Trump being nullified in Oregon if it means that candidates actually pay some attention to my state, which they wouldn't in a direct election due to our low population.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Ramlaen

[Ramlaen]

Wouldn't the entirety of the US be considered just a large locale?

 

Made up of 50 semi sovereign entities (and some territories), which is part of why national elections are treated differently than state level elections.