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Let's Make Fun of Nazi WW2 Aircraft (While recognizing a couple which were also kind of OK)


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27 minutes ago, Bronezhilet said:

I have to say, Me-410 best plane. It just looks amazing.

The Me-210 was a massive pile of shit though, lemme just quote Wikipedia here:

 

Oh yeah that was fun in IL-2.

>Fly German jet
>Get someone on your six
>Slam power

*boooom*

I tend to fly with the throttles at 80% all the time and then concentrate on maintaining energy and airspeed. Even so, I've had occasions where climbing to altitude was enough to melt an engine.

Jumo 004 = the wurst 

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  • 1 month later...
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  • 6 months later...

Thinking about the nickel shortages in germany, I realised something - no nickel means no nichrome for jet engines. They used mild steel, with an aluminium coating, instead! No wonder the german jets never worked. This is probably not news to you aircraft nerds, but I'm amazed that they managed to make a (barely) functioning jet engine with steel turbine blades. The use of aluminium coatings is also odd, and at complete odds with modern thermal barrier coatings (which are insulators)

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1 hour ago, Collimatrix said:

Maybe they were worried about radiant heat hitting the blades and wanted something shiny?

It would give off it's heat faster than plain steel, and at worst act as an ablative coating.

The AEHS  site has a good postwar report on the 004, and notes how the aluminized coating was often melted.

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13 minutes ago, Meplat said:

It would give off it's heat faster than plain steel, and at worst act as an ablative coating.

The AEHS  site has a good postwar report on the 004, and notes how the aluminized coating was often melted.

 

 

I'm not exactly well-versed in jet engine mechanics, but from what I've read the designers put a lot of effort into matching the thermal expansion rates of the blades and the casing to prevent tip losses.  Also, they need to be very careful to design the compressor airfoils such that minor dings and scratches, and any blending used to buff those out, cannot cause compressor blade stall.

 

The idea of ablative thermal coating seems... not exactly compatible with the above.

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That was an "at worst"  application of the coating, since it seems to have been a very common occurrence.

Again, more likely than not it was a protective coating for the turbine blades that would help with keeping the mild steel "core" from developing localized hotspots, or similar. 

 

The compressor blades (IIRC) were not coated, just the hot section.  You also found aluminum or aluminum based coatings on the controllable exhaust cone.

 

Here's a good read on both the plane and the mill, written in '45.  Seems the Germans also messed with Zinc (galvanized) and Ceramic coatings (the Ceramic coated components are the ones that seemed to burn off readily). 

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiTOT/Me262/Me262_draft.pdf

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On 27.12.2017 at 6:17 PM, Xlucine said:

Thinking about the nickel shortages in germany, I realised something - no nickel means no nichrome for jet engines. They used mild steel, with an aluminium coating, instead! No wonder the german jets never worked. This is probably not news to you aircraft nerds, but I'm amazed that they managed to make a (barely) functioning jet engine with steel turbine blades. The use of aluminium coatings is also odd, and at complete odds with modern thermal barrier coatings (which are insulators)

 

The first post in this threat which cought the right idea. Actually I wrote my final Thesis about the German "Rüstungswunder" that never was. And the really impressing points weren`t the mythological wonderweapons or what ever you would consider a wheraboos wet dreams. What was impressing for me where the maybe not so perfect things wihch were accomplished despite the complete fuck up of an Economy dominated by cartel`s and oligopols and a severe lack of ressources which were especially important in the metallurgy. 
Finding flaws in German wartime designs and especially the produced vehicles apart from their paper design ( well there is a difference between what can be invented and drawn and what can be produced under these circumstances) is like hitting a barn door with birdshot from 10 feet (damn you Imperiealmeasuremnts). The interesting story isn`t about how superior german  equipment was, because it wasn`t, the interesting story is what was accomplished despite the situation.
Take the already mentioned Jumo 04 as an example. That thing was faaaaar from perfect but still better or comparable to other Turbojet Engines of it`s time (talking of `40-`43
). And even past 1943 the german jet engine development didn`t fall behind but they failed in realizing these projects because of the slightly different conditions in germany compared to the US or UK. And even if they could have been build the could not have been powered by good wishes an nazi faith.

Personally I started to distinguish between judging the fielded material and the design itself a long time ago and besides that, comparissions between late war equipment from germany and equipment especially from the US is...a case for captain obvious !?!

well, now I`m curious if i get called out a wheraboo because not blowing the horn in the contrary way...

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On 12/29/2017 at 8:01 AM, Jägerlein said:

And even past 1943 the german jet engine development didn`t fall behind but they failed in realizing these projects because of the slightly different conditions in germany compared to the US or UK.

Well, I see we're off to a good start when it comes to understatements in 2018...

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On 12/28/2017 at 6:01 PM, Jägerlein said:

 

The first post in this threat which cought the right idea. Actually I wrote my final Thesis about the German "Rüstungswunder" that never was. And the really impressing points weren`t the mythological wonderweapons or what ever you would consider a wheraboos wet dreams. What was impressing for me where the maybe not so perfect things wihch were accomplished despite the complete fuck up of an Economy dominated by cartel`s and oligopols and a severe lack of ressources which were especially important in the metallurgy. 
Finding flaws in German wartime designs and especially the produced vehicles apart from their paper design ( well there is a difference between what can be invented and drawn and what can be produced under these circumstances) is like hitting a barn door with birdshot from 10 feet (damn you Imperiealmeasuremnts). The interesting story isn`t about how superior german  equipment was, because it wasn`t, the interesting story is what was accomplished despite the situation.
Take the already mentioned Jumo 04 as an example. That thing was faaaaar from perfect but still better or comparable to other Turbojet Engines of it`s time (talking of `40-`43
). And even past 1943 the german jet engine development didn`t fall behind but they failed in realizing these projects because of the slightly different conditions in germany compared to the US or UK. And even if they could have been build the could not have been powered by good wishes an nazi faith.

Personally I started to distinguish between judging the fielded material and the design itself a long time ago and besides that, comparissions between late war equipment from germany and equipment especially from the US is...a case for captain obvious !?!

well, now I`m curious if i get called out a wheraboo because not blowing the horn in the contrary way...

 

No, but you're understating said difference in "conditions".. The U.S. could actually manufacture quality en-masse, and the Brits had enough flexibility to allow people like Whittle (or Turing) to assist their war effort. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here's one I hadn't heard of before that @RobotMinisterofTrueKorea brought up, the Blohm and Voss P-214:

MuWndgx.png

 

This is a replica of the daft thing in an aviation museum in Virginia Beach.

 

The idea was that this would be some sort of manned glide bomb, carried aloft by a host plane and let loose over the formation of Allied bombers.  The pilot of the P-214 would then aim his craft at the formation and bail out before it exploded among the targets.

 

I think the German WWII aviation effort needs a critical re-appraisal vis a vis their Pervitin consumption.

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The Krauts sure seemed keen on the whole let's-build-this-flying-death-trap-made-from-shoddy-materials-and-craftsmanship-using-unproven-Buck-Rogers-technology-and-have-the-pilot-"bail-out"-once-it-gets-there. 

 

At least the Japs had resolution to con their pilots into seeing their Kamikazi attacks through. You'd think Goebbels or Goering would have been able to con enough Hitler Youth into "Flying Werwolf" suicide wings (or whatever Teutonic bullshit they'd name 'em) since the whole country was committing mass suicide during the war anyway by late 1944.

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9 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

Here's one I hadn't heard of before that @RobotMinisterofTrueKorea brought up, the Blohm and Voss P-214:

 

 

This is a replica of the daft thing in an aviation museum in Virginia Beach.

 

The idea was that this would be some sort of manned glide bomb, carried aloft by a host plane and let loose over the formation of Allied bombers.  The pilot of the P-214 would then aim his craft at the formation and bail out before it exploded among the targets.

 

I think the German WWII aviation effort needs a critical re-appraisal vis a vis their Pervitin consumption.

If they'd stuck with just amphetamines, it may have worked out a bit better for them. 

 

8 hours ago, Donward said:

The Krauts sure seemed keen on the whole let's-build-this-flying-death-trap-made-from-shoddy-materials-and-craftsmanship-using-unproven-Buck-Rogers-technology-and-have-the-pilot-"bail-out"-once-it-gets-there. 

 

At least the Japs had resolution to con their pilots into seeing their Kamikazi attacks through. You'd think Goebbels or Goering would have been able to con enough Hitler Youth into "Flying Werwolf" suicide wings (or whatever Teutonic bullshit they'd name 'em) since the whole country was committing mass suicide during the war anyway by late 1944.

Oh, there were German examples of "hey let's stuff people in a plane and blow ourselves up for der furher."

Sonderkommando Elbe, and the "Leonidas Squadron" are commonly known ones. 

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9 hours ago, Collimatrix said:

Here's one I hadn't heard of before that @RobotMinisterofTrueKorea brought up, the Blohm and Voss P-214:

MuWndgx.png

 

This is a replica of the daft thing in an aviation museum in Virginia Beach.

 

The idea was that this would be some sort of manned glide bomb, carried aloft by a host plane and let loose over the formation of Allied bombers.  The pilot of the P-214 would then aim his craft at the formation and bail out before it exploded among the targets.

 

I think the German WWII aviation effort needs a critical re-appraisal vis a vis their Pervitin consumption.

 

Apparently that's not the whole setup...

 

german-p-214-mistletoe.jpg

 

 

 

Manned V-1s seem like a good idea too

 

o99-23.jpg

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  • 2 years later...
On 2/10/2017 at 7:49 AM, Toxn said:

This thing is 'entertaining' to fly in sim. Sim pilots also know the pain of trying to get a German jet off the runway without lighting an engine on fire, as well as the joy of your engine/s melting because you got yourself low and slow and dared to throttle the engines past 70%.

Lord knows how many real 262s burned up on the taxiway because the pilot was a bit too rough with the throttle lever...

 

Maybe an interesting point here - Czechoslovakia operated 10 Me-262 after the war - seven S-92 (A-1a) and three CS-92 (B-1a). These planes were all built post-war - partially from wartime material, partially from newly produced parts (a lot of those were produced in Czechoslovakia already during the WW2). Four were made of unfinished airframes (LBB production), the rest from planes found on various airfields. Surprisingly they weren't many despite the fact that most of the remaining Me-262 units fought from airfields in Bohemia at the end of war. The planes were partially destroyed by fighting (in Prague Ruzyně mainly), destroyed by Germans themselves before capitulation or lost in combat and accidents. Few well-preserved were taken by Russians (1-2 probably). Overall 18 airframes were gathered (1 from Ruzyně airfield, 13 from Žatec airfield and 4 unfinished from České Budějovice factory). None were airworthy. It's also notable that even when you had 10 A-1a it didn't mean they were same. Actually there were differences in cockpits, hydraulics etc. based on production abilities of the split and decentralized suppliers). 

 

The point why I'm posting it is that the engines were somewhat modified post-war but even with that and without sabotages (and proper testing before use in the aircraft) they didn't get to any massive raise of engine life. I don't remember exactly but I think they achieved something like 30 hours (which was still more than Soviet RD-10 I think). A lot of the problems were also with fuel filters which tend to get blocked at slower speeds. 

 

If I remember right Bismarck from Military Aviation History channel mentioned that Jumo 004B were actually delivered to the units straight from the production lines without any testing. That greatly contributed to the low reliability of the engines.  

 

Czechoslovak planes also had second (backup) hydraulic pump installed. They also flew with only two cannons (no idea why). Anyway while the planes were more reliable than the war production they still suffer from many issues and at least one was destroyed in accident (pilot survived landing in the field at 230 km/h). Two planes are preserved in Prague Kbely museum, one S-92 S.No.4 and one CS-92 S.No.5. 

 

As a bonus Czechoslovak manual for Jumo-004B (M-4) engine

 

 

One more thing to the engine reliability problems related to the lack of nickel, chromium and sabotages. This time with DB-605. On 13th August 1944 there was a battle between USAAF and Luftwafe over Czechoslovakia in which Luftwaffe lost 13 fighters (US lost 9 B-17 shot down and 1 B-24 fue to an accident). Out of Luftwaffe looses 5 Bf-109G-14/AS and 4 Fw-190A-8 were shot down by P-51 but another 4 Bf-109G-14/AS crashed due to an engine failure. That is 44% of Messerschmitt looses. None Fw-109A-8 crashed due to an accident in that encounter. 

 

The absolute horrible reliability of late war DB-605 was one of the reason why many Bf-109G were rebuilt post war in Czechoslovakia with bomber Jumo 211 engines. These planes called Avia S-199/CS-199 were an absolute shit to fly due to an enormous reaction torque of the propeller but nevertheless they soon fought for Izrael... 

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3 hours ago, Beer said:

 

Maybe an interesting point here - Czechoslovakia operated 10 Me-262 after the war - seven S-92 (A-1a) and three CS-92 (B-1a). These planes were all built post-war - partially from wartime material, partially from newly produced parts (a lot of those were produced in Czechoslovakia already during the WW2). Four were made of unfinished airframes (LBB production), the rest from planes found on various airfields. Surprisingly they weren't many despite the fact that most of the remaining Me-262 units fought from airfields in Bohemia at the end of war. The planes were partially destroyed by fighting (in Prague Ruzyně mainly), destroyed by Germans themselves before capitulation or lost in combat and accidents. Few well-preserved were taken by Russians (1-2 probably). Overall 18 airframes were gathered (1 from Ruzyně airfield, 13 from Žatec airfield and 4 unfinished from České Budějovice factory). None were airworthy. It's also notable that even when you had 10 A-1a it didn't mean they were same. Actually there were differences in cockpits, hydraulics etc. based on production abilities of the split and decentralized suppliers). 

 

The point why I'm posting it is that the engines were somewhat modified post-war but even with that and without sabotages (and proper testing before use in the aircraft) they didn't get to any massive raise of engine life. I don't remember exactly but I think they achieved something like 30 hours (which was still more than Soviet RD-10 I think). A lot of the problems were also with fuel filters which tend to get blocked at slower speeds. 

 

If I remember right Bismarck from Military Aviation History channel mentioned that Jumo 004B were actually delivered to the units straight from the production lines without any testing. That greatly contributed to the low reliability of the engines.  

 

Czechoslovak planes also had second (backup) hydraulic pump installed. They also flew with only two cannons (no idea why). Anyway while the planes were more reliable than the war production they still suffer from many issues and at least one was destroyed in accident (pilot survived landing in the field at 230 km/h). Two planes are preserved in Prague Kbely museum, one S-92 S.No.4 and one CS-92 S.No.5. 

 

As a bonus Czechoslovak manual for Jumo-004B (M-4) engine

 

 

One more thing to the engine reliability problems related to the lack of nickel, chromium and sabotages. This time with DB-605. On 13th August 1944 there was a battle between USAAF and Luftwafe over Czechoslovakia in which Luftwaffe lost 13 fighters (US lost 9 B-17 shot down and 1 B-24 fue to an accident). Out of Luftwaffe looses 5 Bf-109G-14/AS and 4 Fw-190A-8 were shot down by P-51 but another 4 Bf-109G-14/AS crashed due to an engine failure. That is 44% of Messerschmitt looses. None Fw-109A-8 crashed due to an accident in that encounter. 

 

The absolute horrible reliability of late war DB-605 was one of the reason why many Bf-109G were rebuilt post war in Czechoslovakia with bomber Jumo 211 engines. These planes called Avia S-199/CS-199 were an absolute shit to fly due to an enormous reaction torque of the propeller but nevertheless they soon fought for Izrael... 

@Collimatrix can add more to this, but my understanding is that the Jumos are just a bad design, period. The use of counter-rotating "stators" and the design of the burner cans all but garuantee low lifespans and engine flameout issues.

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All the early jet engines were kinda bad.  The Jumo 004 had its merits, notably low cost, as it was cheaper than the fighter piston engines to produce.

 

There are many, many, many things wrong with the Jumo 004, and people who try to oversimplify them to shoddy worksmanship or poor metallurgy are, well, oversimplifying.  If you watch footage of Jumo 004s running, for instance, you'll frequently see big gouts of flame transiently come out the nozzle.  This is due to big, poorly atomized blobs of fuel making it through the turbine stage and exiting the back.

 

I think it was basically par for the course for a first-generation technology made under duress, but it's difficult to exaggerate just how janky they were.

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