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Sturgeon's House

N-L-M
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1 hour ago, DIADES said:

That is going to need one hell of a traverse drive.  Probably consume more power that required for mobility.  And if the powerpack is in the turret ( the frigging enormous powerpack) then drive to the tracks is hydraulic or electric?  Hydraulic has such poor efficiency that the powerpack would go from frigging enormous to double frigging enormous.  If electric, bear in mind that we don't have fancy electronics so no brushless high efficiency stuff and even brushed stuff will have to use old school magnetic materials - no fancy rare earths..  Then there is CoG height and cross slope stability etc.  But, it would be cool if you can make it work :)

 

 

 

@N-L-M and I discussed these crazy all-turret tanks.  He pointed out that this is basically how a lot of backhoes are configured.

I agree that it would basically require electrical or hydraulic drive.

 

I don't understand why you would want to make a tank this way, but Xoon may have some crazy ideas.

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5 minutes ago, Collimatrix said:

He pointed out that this is basically how a lot of backhoes are configured.

Indeed it is - and it is perfect for that application.  Maximum excavator slew speed is trivial, slew accuracy not required etc  So, yeah, definitely a challenge to make to make an effective fighting vehicle in such a config

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10 minutes ago, DIADES said:

Of course the other way to do this is BvS10 style.  That would allow twice the track on ground area and still be steerable.  Most obvious compromise is loss of zero radius turn.  This approach would allow a non-Maus 120 tonne vehicle.....

Does that even count as a single vehicle though?

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30 minutes ago, Toxn said:

Does that even count as a single vehicle though?

The test would be along the lines of - is either half a fully functional vehicle or does one have to have both halves to do anything useful.  A BvS10 meets the test - you need the whole thing to get stuff done.  I am not going down this path, just racking my brain to find ways to use the nominally available mass total.  I agree with Collimatrix's earlier post - no way anything conventionally configured and over about 100 tonne is doable in a mobility sense within the 4.0m width constraint.  Even then, 100 tonnes requires serious suspension of disbelief.

 

I am aiming at 75 tonne for my first pass.

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6 minutes ago, DIADES said:

The test would be along the lines of - is either half a fully functional vehicle or does one have to have both halves to do anything useful.  A BvS10 meets the test - you need the whole thing to get stuff done.  I am not going down this path, just racking my brain to find ways to use the nominally available mass total.  I agree with Collimatrix's earlier post - no way anything conventionally configured and over about 100 tonne is doable in a mobility sense within the 4.0m width constraint.  Even then, 100 tonnes requires serious suspension of disbelief.

 

I am aiming at 75 tonne for my first pass.

I'm planning something pretty radical as well, but my focus for the moment is on armament and working out what the minimum armour configurations look like.

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16 minutes ago, Toxn said:

I'm planning something pretty radical as well, but my focus for the moment is on armament and working out what the minimum armour configurations look like.

 

This is how I work: the weapon system and armor come first, the design the chassis to fit those. 

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1 minute ago, Lord_James said:

 

This is how I work: the weapon system and armor come first, the design the chassis to fit those. 

My intermediate step is the turret - you can tell pretty quickly when an idea is no good if the turret looks too goofy.

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6 minutes ago, Toxn said:

My intermediate step is the turret - you can tell pretty quickly when an idea is no good if the turret looks too goofy.

 

Agreed, though by chassis, I meant “whatever the weapon and armor are attached to”. 

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Four others and I have joined together in the spirit of collective labor to form the SierraNevadaVagonzavod, a collective design bureau. We are currently investigating vehicles under the program designation AFV-50 (Armored Fighting Vehicle 2250).

 

AFV-50 will be equipped with a powerful smoothbore gun of greater than 100mm bore and over 35 calibers in length. It will be equipped with sufficiently tailored ammunition to auditorily correct the political and moral failings of our northern and western neighbors.

 

The collective has determined that an automatic loading mechanism will allow all crew personnel to express their individual strengths, political, moral, physical, emotional, spiritual, and otherwise, towards the collective goal most equally. We believe that the performance should far exceed the requirements as posed in the RFP, a feat only achieved through intense study of the works of Comrade Hubbard, Praise be upon them, may their everlasting name be sung eternally from the peoples’ lips, and signed from their hands.

 

Always on our guard, the Shock-Workers of the SNVZ have designed an armoring scheme which will be equipped to resist all potential and future threats to our peaceful way of existence from all angles. Should the Cascadian Warmongers and their Feudal religious zealot accomplices dare to follow through their bellicose rhetoric, the AFV-50 will be able to resist all aggression, macro and micro, from all current and prospective threat systems. However! The design collective has always taken to heart the words of Comrade Feinstein the 5th:

 

The greatest weapon in the arsenal of the DPRC is not our guns or bombs, but L Ron Hubbard Thought.

 

This is the true armor which protects our people and way of life. It is the design collective’s hope that our armor design may in the balance be worthy of utterance in the same sentence as the name of the Great Prophet Hubbard, Praise be upon them, may their everlasting name be sung eternally from the peoples’ lips, and signed from their hands.

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34 minutes ago, Toxn said:

Having futzed around a bit with various gun designs, I think I can confidently say that all-steel APFSDS with a 15:1 L/D limit cannot meet the penetration 

That's what you have the 100g of Tungsten for. Cargo culting off the Soviet APFSDS designs, it seems that it increases performance by quite a margin. The 115m 3BM-21 APFSDS slung by the T-62 wasn't far off the performance mark at all;  and the 3bm-15 for the 125mm was more than capable of matching the required performance.

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46 minutes ago, N-L-M said:

That's what you have the 100g of Tungsten for. Cargo culting off the Soviet APFSDS designs, it seems that it increases performance by quite a margin. The 115m 3BM-21 APFSDS slung by the T-62 wasn't far off the performance mark at all;  and the 3bm-15 for the 125mm was more than capable of matching the required performance.

350mm at the muzzle won't cut it, unfortunately. At least, not if you want more than the barest level of penetration (350mm KE vs 60mm HHA, 20cm air gap and 200mm RHA = 19mm overpenetration) at minimum ranges.

 

Certified penetration of 3BM-15 is 310mm at 2000m:

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

Unfortunately, the penetrator is ~350g of WC, meaning that it has more than the allowed 100g of tungsten in it.

 

For what it's worth, I've managed to get ~325mm predicted using various designs. But I feel that the optimum is more like 375-400mm penetration at the muzzle, and I see no realistic way to get that with 15:1 L/D steel APFSDS.

 

On the other hand, my current favoured gun design should manage ~550mm CE penetration using primitive HEAT-FS. So you can guess where my thoughts are trending on where to go with my submission already.

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11 minutes ago, Lord_James said:

 

That was my first thought when I saw L/D is limited to 15:1. Though, if that’s for the whole rod and not just it’s components, the segmented rods won’t mean anything. 

Comes in two threaded pieces with instructions to the crew NOT to thread them together as higher performance may result :lol:

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Does anyone have information on the composition of Stillbrew? I've been under the impression that it was simply solid steel with a rubber supporting layer bolted to the Chieftain's turret face, however some information I've read alluded to it "sounding hollow" when knocked on?

 

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, N-L-M said:

That's what you have the 100g of Tungsten for. Cargo culting off the Soviet APFSDS designs, it seems that it increases performance by quite a margin. The 115m 3BM-21 APFSDS slung by the T-62 wasn't far off the performance mark at all;  and the 3bm-15 for the 125mm was more than capable of matching the required performance.

A quick run through longrods seems to show that the 20x70mm tip adds perhaps 100mm of penetration.

 

Meaning that a 107g WC insert with the same thickness should add 25-30mm. 

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1 minute ago, Whatismoo said:

Does anyone have information on the composition of Stillbrew? I've been under the impression that it was simply solid steel with a rubber supporting layer bolted to the Chieftain's turret face, however some information I've read alluded to it "sounding hollow" when knocked on?

 

Thanks!

Check here:

From memory it's just steel and rubber layers with no gaps.

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