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StuG III Thread (and also other German vehicles I guess)

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1 hour ago, Willy Brandt said:

I really want to know how they got to 500 Million.
Is it money that still needs to be spend?

It seems like the 500 mio includes some "old" stuff but also new upgrades which are deemed as necessary for VJTF but also all logisitc costs for eventually stationing up to 4000 soldiers abroad, dditional ammo for training and what not else.
Things like SVFuA* and MoTaKo** are probably inclded, too and would otherwise be included in an other budget item, but since it`s necessary for VJTF maybe the whole fixcosts for R&D are noe included in those 500 mio despite they are not liited on these 40 vehicles

* Streitkräftegemeinsame Verbundfähige Funkgeräte-Ausstattung = Common armed forces inter-operabele radio equipment ( somebody please correct my quick and dirty translation)

** Mobile Taktische Kommunikation = Mobile tactical communication

Edit: But the exact wording suggests  that the the already started SVFuA/MoTaKo programm is only for some command vehicles and now the rest of the fleet, or at least all the non command versions of these 40 vehicles needs to be upgraded, too utilize the "new" tech.

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Land 400 Phase 2 (the 8x8 bit) is due for consideration (“Gate 2”) by NSC (National Security Committee [of Cabinet]) in the second quarter of this year....that’ll also give Gate 1 to Land 400 Phase 3 ([tracked] IFV).

 

Both contenders for Phase 2 were asked in August last year to cost up a Phase 3 offering based on their 8x8 shortlist i.e. an 8x8 IFV. The Bushmaster replacement project may also be a factor...a flat-top Boxer to replace the Bushmaster would be a cost-effective option from a fleet management perspective. 

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Slovenia will aparently buy the Boxer:

 

Quote

 

Slovenia selects Boxer to meet 8x8 requirement

5th February 2018 - 09:02 GMT | by Grant Turnbull in London

RSS

The Slovenian MoD has announced that it will move forward with plans to acquire the German-made Boxer 8x8 armoured vehicle, making it the fourth country to select the type.

The MoD announced on 2 February that it had chosen to create a medium-size ‘Central Battalion Battle Group’ with the German ...

 

[paywall]

 

 

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/slovenia-selects-boxer-meet-8x8-requirement/

 

 

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6 hours ago, 2805662 said:

Any word on numbers?

 

Apparently the Slovenian MoD has stated on its website, that initially enough Boxers will be purchased for just one battalion. According to earlier reports that would be about 50 vehicles.

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On 6.2.2018 at 12:34 PM, SH_MM said:

Apparently the Slovenian MoD has stated on its website, that initially enough Boxers will be purchased for just one battalion. According to earlier reports that would be about 50 vehicles.

 

So it seems that this number was incorrect or that the first contract will be about half the amount of Boxers only.

 

According to Jane's IHS, overall two battlegroups of the Slovenian army will be equipped with Boxers. Each battlegroup will have 48 vehicles with a 30 mm autocannon in an unspecified turret. The DTR Magazine claims that the overall number of vehicles too be purchased by Slovenia will be about 100, which might include driver traning vehicles.

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https://www.armyrecognition.com/singapore_airshow_2018_latest_news/new_kmw_155m_artillery_gun_module_mounted_on_truck_chassis_at_singapore_airshow_2018.html

New_KMW_155m_artillery_gun_module_mounte

The Ceasar from the other side of the Rhine.
A400M transportable.
360 degree firing arc.
30 rounds.
1 minute setup time.
MRSI at 12km.
between 30 and 40km range with HE.
 

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5 hours ago, Willy Brandt said:

https://www.armyrecognition.com/singapore_airshow_2018_latest_news/new_kmw_155m_artillery_gun_module_mounted_on_truck_chassis_at_singapore_airshow_2018.html

New_KMW_155m_artillery_gun_module_mounte

The Ceasar from the other side of the Rhine.
A400M transportable.
360 degree firing arc.
30 rounds.
1 minute setup time.
MRSI at 12km.
between 30 and 40km range with HE.
 

The price ?

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That's probably the best ID mark to look for. The axles from the inner wheels stick out some distance too.  I honestly will usually go by just the roadwheels themselves, but this isn't always the case.

 

panste.jpg

 

Note below how the third outer roadwheel is the rubber-rimmed type typical of Panthers, while all the others are steel-rimmed. 

 

21ri2.jpg

 

 

I believe KTs have that little escape hatch at the front while Panthers do not, but I'm not 100% on that either.

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14 hours ago, Serge said:

The price ?

Probably still cheaper than a full PzH2000.
A Iveco Trakker costs used 63k and up with the extra axle and in the military version without all the service stuff probably around 100k-150k + the spares,training, service etc.
For Artillery Gun Module maybe a 2 million and up + service, training, ammo

Ceasar costs 5 Million.
PzH2000 between 4.5 and 6 million maybe less the same with Ceasar if you subtract the service "stuff" and look how much it costs during peak production.

 

Maybe @SH_MM can say/find something about the price of the AGM.

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2 hours ago, Willy Brandt said:

Probably still cheaper than a full PzH2000.
A Iveco Trakker costs used 63k and up with the extra axle and in the military version without all the service stuff probably around 100k-150k + the spares,training, service etc.
For Artillery Gun Module maybe a 2 million and up + service, training, ammo

Ceasar costs 5 Million.
PzH2000 between 4.5 and 6 million maybe less the same with Ceasar if you subtract the service "stuff" and look how much it costs during peak production.

So, PzH-2000 is cheaper than a CAESAR. So funny

 

Made my day. 

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20 minutes ago, Serge said:

So, PzH-2000 is cheaper than a CAESAR. So funny

 

Made my day. 

The only numbers i could find were for the Croatian and Qatari contract. Both were used ones from the German Army so maybe yes its cheaper used than a fresh Ceasar.
And the numbers of Ceasar are far less and streched over a longer time than the PzH2000 ones. 150-200 ceasars and 350 PzH2000s

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AFAIK Qatar didn't buy any second hand gear.

 

___

PS:

 

The Slovenian "medium battlegroups" will have the following composition according to the Slovenian website Obramba.com:

 

- three companies of 13 Boxers with 30 mm gun (apparently in the Rheinmetall Lance Modular Turret system, at least photographs of a Boxer with Lance have been used by Slovenian websites)

- one heavy company of 8 Boxers with 120 mm mortar

- a single scout platoon of four Boxers with 30 mm guns.

 

The already purchased Patria AMVs will apparently be used for other support roles. 24 of the Boxers with 30 mm gun will be fitted with the Spike ATGM. That would put each battlegroup at 51 vehicles each. However Obramba.com claims that the first batch to be ordered by Slovenia is 56 vehicles large, so maybe that includes driver training vehicles. Locally the Boxer will be known as BKV 8x8.

 

 

Meanwhile representatives from the Czech defense news services were invited to KMW's Munich facility to be briefed on the advantages of the Puma (typical marketing event). There are some generic informations regarding the Puma:

 

  • its protection level is exceeding the current STANAG 4569 level 6 standard against ballistic threats and the STANAG 4569 level 4a/b against mines. The mine protection is formed by (at least) two sandwich-plates, with a space of more than 100 mm between them.
  • the unmanned turret includes blow-out panels  in its roof armor or the armor would act like a blow-out panel. This also seems to be the case with the hull ammo, but maybe Google Translate twisted the words a bit...
  • the elements of the decoupled running-gear supposedly can be swapped out after damage to reduce repair times, making it easier to get the vehicle combat ready after being struck by a mine or an IED
  • Germany considered the ASCOD, the CV90, the M2 Bradley and the Warrior before opting to develop the Puma
  • the ERA by Dynamit Nobel Defence was apparently added, because it offered increased protection over the previous armor layout
  • Czech newspapers claimed that the Puma had a really high fuel consumption, but KMW denies these claims. The range of 550 km on road and 250 km cross-country has been confirmed by the German Army's testing. The Czech sources would exaggerate the values, but the Puma should have slightly higher fuel consumption than the other vehicles, because it was both heavier and faster during the tests. MTU has created a 1,000 kW variant of the MT 892 V10 engine, which does not increase fuel consumption (by a major amount)
  • the Puma's ATGM launcher is dampened, so that the vehicle can drive more than 1,000 km without the vibrations damaging the missiles. This was proven with special tests
  • the United States Army agreed to consider foreign vehicles in the NGCV program (M2 Bradley replacement). KMW seems to be interested in offering the Puma
  • series production in Germany is currently outputting between 66 and 71 vehicles per year
  • people can train repair and maintenance works with VR/AR googles
  • a demonstrator for the first Puma upgrade (including color displays, a 360° day and night surveillance system and maybe also the TWSA) already exists, but during the visit of the Czech writers it was being tested by the German military
  • additional Puma variants (required by the Czech military) could be locally developed in the Czech Republic

bvp_puma_unor_2018_4.jpgpuma_ifv_unor_2018_3_big.jpg

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Willy Brandt said:

The only numbers i could find were for the Croatian and Qatari contract. Both were used ones from the German Army so maybe yes its cheaper used than a fresh Ceasar.
And the numbers of Ceasar are far less and streched over a longer time than the PzH2000 ones. 150-200 ceasars and 350 PzH2000s

How can this :

PzH-2000-Qatar-A001.jpg

be cheaper than this :

JT6B9389.JPG

 

???

Just a mater of logic.

 

I won’t digress on artillery but :

- CAESAR is a towed artillery gun on truck ;

- Donar is a light SPGH. 

Both can’t be compared. 

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3 hours ago, Serge said:

How can this :

PzH-2000-Qatar-A001.jpg

be cheaper than this :

JT6B9389.JPG

 

???

Just a mater of logic.

 

I won’t digress on artillery but :

- CAESAR is a towed artillery gun on truck ;

- Donar is a light SPGH. 

Both can’t be compared. 

If you have better numbers show them also DONAR/AGM isnt the PzH 2000.

Donar is only a artillery module.

Maybe in the Ceasar number are the R&D costs and service costs. 

 

Again if you find better numbers pls post them.

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What is the cost of the chassis alone ?

You don’t need figures but logic. With or without R&D. R&D for what on CAESAR ?

and « service costs » is fun too. 

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